[Katun]

Alright, so I've been really frustrated for the past hour or so.
 
You know, comparisons going as normal. HD600 vs HD650. Q701 vs HD600. HD650 vs D2000. Then all of a sudden, I wanted to try the HD650 unamped, just to see if it sounded as good as it did amped. So, I pull it out of my Micro Stack, and plug it straight into my $170 P650 CD player. I'm astonished to hear there is honestly little difference I am hearing. To put it in perspective, upgrading from the AD700 to the AD900 is a MUCH bigger difference then I'm hearing hear. K601 to K701, HD600 to HD650; you name it. I really don't understand. I thought the HD650's benefited greatly with an amp?
 
I recall making nearly an identical thread back when I had my second pair. But I had my Little Dot MKIII instead.
 
I don't know. If I'm getting 95%+ sound quality from a rig that costs $650 less, why am I keeping the rig I have now? Is the headphone/amp synergy way off or something, or do amps simply do nothing unless you hit the $1K-$2K range? This is frustrating, slightly infuriating, yet partially reliving.
 
Gotta love this hobby!

 

[Parall3l]

Try plugging it in to a lesser source ? A PC would be a good comparison. Quite supprised to hear this

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I'm not surprised. Some CDPlayers, mostly from select brands, have decent headphone drivers that it has to be severly outmatched to your headphone's drive demands for an amp to really do much better with it. My HD600 runs fine off my Marantz CD60 before, and the only reason why I got a DIYMod and a Toucan was because I got them for just a little over the cost of a new transport for the Marantz. The amp - in this case the one built into the Teac - would have to be horribly outmatched to the HD650 and another amp to be much better for it for you to notice a significant difference. That, or the other amp is extremely colored.
 
That said, the HD650 might look like it's hard to drive, but 300ohms isn't the whole story; my HD600 is reasonably good out of a Cowon S9 (I get desperate during power black outs) too, although at max volume level it's still below my listening level. A high load doesn't always account for other factors, like sensitivity and how complex that load is, ie, how the impedance behaves while music plays, which are two things that make the K701/2 more picky with amplifiers compared to the Sennheisers.

 

[djviciouscycle]

Hey Katun, I just bought that same CD player a few months ago. I think your review on Amazon helped me with my decision. Before I bought the CD-P650, I contacted TEAC, to ask about the digital tap for iPods and the specs of the headphone amp. Their responses were polite, but they didn't answer my questions. Right now, all of my headphones have fairly low impedences. When I listen to the CD-P650 with headphones, I keep the volume knob on the unit between 7:30 and 8:30. I asked others about the implications, and I was told that many standalone CD players have powerful headphone amps built in, and it is likely that this TEAC can drive all high impedednce headphones. So far all the headphones near the top of my 'want to buy' list have low impedences, but your post here pretty much answers my questions with some first-hand knowledge.

 

[Head Injury]

Differences in amps and DACs are very, very exaggerated, and that's when they make any audible difference at all. You don't need to spend thousands (or in some cases even hundreds) to get the most out of your headphones. The market would like you to believe you do, though.
 
85% of the cost of my rig was spent on the headphones. I couldn't be happier, and I wasn't even when I had a DAC1 

 

[tdockweiler]

The weird thing about it though, is that I've had amps actually MAKE me like a headphone. Is it just better synergy? I don't know...
 
Tried the K702 with the Asgard..hated it. Connected it to the E9 and actually liked it a lot! This is until I found the K601 and was able to find things about the K702 I didn't like.
 
I also have to be honest that I didn't like my HD-650 with the E9 or Asgard, but did with my Micro Amp. I don't have Katun's source, and there is too many things involved to know why this is.
I felt that with my HD-650 there was a big enough difference going between all the different amps I tried. Not HUGE, but enough of a change for me. For me, the HD-650 sounded a bit different with EVERY amp and it's not like I have golden ears. I remember one time doing a comparison of about 4 different amps. Somehow it sounded best out of a portable amp (Total Airhead). What the heck? That's why I upgraded to the Micro Amp.
 
I also tried my K601 with other amps and this is why I now have it at one of my primary headphones.

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

The weird thing about it though, is that I've had amps actually MAKE me like a headphone. Is it just better synergy? I don't know...
 
Tried the K702 with the Asgard..hated it. Connected it to the E9 and actually liked it a lot! This is until I found the K601 and was able to find things about the K702 I didn't like.
 
I also have to be honest that I didn't like my HD-650 with the E9 or Asgard, but did with my Micro Amp. I don't have Katun's source, and there is too many things involved to know why this is.
I felt that with my HD-650 there was a big enough difference going between all the different amps I tried. Not HUGE, but enough of a change for me. For me, the HD-650 sounded a bit different with EVERY amp and it's not like I have golden ears. I remember one time doing a comparison of about 4 different amps. Somehow it sounded best out of a portable amp (Total Airhead). What the heck? That's why I upgraded to the Micro Amp.
 
I also tried my K601 with other amps and this is why I now have it at one of my primary headphones.

There's no way of knowing why you liked what you like because neither Schiit nor Headroom publish specs beyond a vague THD number and a unnecessarily wide frequency response. I'm unaware of any thorough third-party tests of either. Maybe Stereophile has a Micro Amp review?
 
The E9 has a 10 ohm output impedance on the 1/4" jack, which could have audibly altered the K702's frequency response, but not by much.

 

[milosolo]

That is quite different from my experience with the HD650. I hear a very noticeable improvement when going un-amped to Audinst HUD-MX1 to Maverick D1 to Lyr. The Lyr by far and away drives my HD650 the best. It's really a complete transformation through this chain of amps. My conclusion is the HD650 needs a powerful amp to sound their best. A tube amp in particular gives the advantage of tube rolling to fine-tune the sound to your preference.
 
Quote:

Alright, so I've been really frustrated for the past hour or so.
 
You know, comparisons going as normal. HD600 vs HD650. Q701 vs HD600. HD650 vs D2000. Then all of a sudden, I wanted to try the HD650 unamped, just to see if it sounded as good as it did amped. So, I pull it out of my Micro Stack, and plug it straight into my $170 P650 CD player. I'm astonished to hear there is honestly little difference I am hearing. To put it in perspective, upgrading from the AD700 to the AD900 is a MUCH bigger difference then I'm hearing hear. K601 to K701, HD600 to HD650; you name it. I really don't understand. I thought the HD650's benefited greatly with an amp?
 
I recall making nearly an identical thread back when I had my second pair. But I had my Little Dot MKIII instead.
 
I don't know. If I'm getting 95%+ sound quality from a rig that costs $650 less, why am I keeping the rig I have now? Is the headphone/amp synergy way off or something, or do amps simply do nothing unless you hit the $1K-$2K range? This is frustrating, slightly infuriating, yet partially reliving.
 
Gotta love this hobby!

 

 

[Satellite_6]

Any amp will do really. They're not that hard to drive. I do think synergy plays a role though, and that's why people claim night and day differences. 

 

[Tilpo]

I also have an HD 650 and as was said the difference in sound between amps is not that great.
Straight out of my iPod or computer it lacks quite a bit, and not only volume. I wouldn't describe it as horrible, but it's definitely not the full potential of my cans.

Having said that the difference between my NFB-12 headphone output and my Little Dot MK IV is not that great. The MK IV appears to have a bit wider soundstage, and I slightly warmer and 'musical' sound. However, the NFB-12 is not behind by much. The differences are by no means 'huge', and I almost regret buying the MK IV, since an NFB-12 alone would have sufficed in my opinion.

The biggest difference will always be between headphones, and not between different amps and DACs.

 

[audiohiser]

The only change you'll really ever get from a properly functioning amp is more volume.  Yes, depending on the output impedance the sound may change, but anywhere from 0-50 ohm output 
 
impedance shouldn't cause a perceptible change in sound.  Katun, you are beginning to notice what I did a few years ago when I got into this hobby and was told I needed a better amp-they don't 
 
sound different.  If you want a noticeably different sound, use an eq.  I can turn my DT880's into pseudo HD650's that way. 

 Of course, there's also placebo effect but I won't get into that.
 
Btw I'm also a believer that digital sources all sound the same, as long as their is no loss in the output stage, and that only a source like a turntable can sound different between models. If this
 
discredits my opinion, sorry, but I'm just trying to save your wallet!

 

[tdockweiler]

Quote:

The only change you'll really ever get from a properly functioning amp is more volume.  Yes, depending on the output impedance the sound may change, but anywhere from 0-50 ohm output 
 
impedance shouldn't cause a perceptible change in sound.  Katun, you are beginning to notice what I did a few years ago when I got into this hobby and was told I needed a better amp-they don't 
 
sound different.  If you want a noticeably different sound, use an eq.  I can turn my DT880's into pseudo HD650's that way. 

 Of course, there's also placebo effect but I won't get into that.
 
Btw I'm also a believer that digital sources all sound the same, as long as their is no loss in the output stage, and that only a source like a turntable can sound different between models. If this
 
discredits my opinion, sorry, but I'm just trying to save your wallet!

 
Not to be a jerk, but this is nonsense. Worst advice I've heard yet. Ask about 1000 amp owners on here and they'll say otherwise.
Best advice to anyone is to just try different amps out for yourself and take posts like this with a grain of salt. Use your own ears and then decide.
Most amps have a 15-30 day trial anyway. It's not like you'll hurt their feelings if you return one.
It's good that you came to this conclusion, but I don't agree. Yeah, it does vary between headphones of course. Some won't sound any different.
 
This is like how someone once told me that my Asgard couldn't magically make the mids on my D2000 sound less recessed...

 
 

 

[tdockweiler]

Katun, you should really just give them all more time. Too much comparing and analyzing them all in one go is never a good idea.
I've learned this the hard way..

 

[Katun]

Quote:

Hey Katun, I just bought that same CD player a few months ago. I think your review on Amazon helped me with my decision. Before I bought the CD-P650, I contacted TEAC, to ask about the digital tap for iPods and the specs of the headphone amp. Their responses were polite, but they didn't answer my questions. Right now, all of my headphones have fairly low impedences. When I listen to the CD-P650 with headphones, I keep the volume knob on the unit between 7:30 and 8:30. I asked others about the implications, and I was told that many standalone CD players have powerful headphone amps built in, and it is likely that this TEAC can drive all high impedednce headphones. So far all the headphones near the top of my 'want to buy' list have low impedences, but your post here pretty much answers my questions with some first-hand knowledge.

Yeah, I need to update that review. Modernize it a bit. All it does is compare the P650 to the P1260.
 
I need to let potential buyers know that it can run pretty much everything with ease, and sounds as good as standalone amps.
 
BTW, I used it about 9:00 on the dial with my HD600 and HD650, and it was plenty loud. No problem whatsoever.

 

[audiohiser]

 
Quote:

 
Not to be a jerk, but this is nonsense. Worst advice I've heard yet. Ask about 1000 amp owners on here and they'll say otherwise.
Best advice to anyone is to just try different amps out for yourself and take posts like this with a grain of salt. Use your own ears and then decide.
Most amps have a 15-30 day trial anyway. It's not like you'll hurt their feelings if you return one.
It's good that you came to this conclusion, but I don't agree. Yeah, it does vary between headphones of course. Some won't sound any different.
 
This is like how someone once told me that my Asgard couldn't magically make the mids on my D2000 sound less recessed...
 
 
  
 
 

I've heard many, many amplifiers.  Many vintage tube and solid-state, and many recent tube and solid state.  There is no possible way an amplifier can change the sound of a headphone, unless the amp is purposely colored to do so (some tube amps are colored by nature of course) or malfunctioning.  I note your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.  Have you taken any blind tests or see that most amps literally measure within .025 db of each other? That difference is unintelligible. If you hear a difference, then go ahead, I honestly wish I could make my headphones sound better to me by buying an amp.  But I'm just trying to help Katun save some money if he possibly doesn't hear a difference.  Like you said though, the 15-30 day trial is key.  Oh and once again I recommend eqing, if just for the heck of it.