[dr dougie]

I bought a Headsix and returned it for refund when the aluminium rails that hold the screws for the front plate were stripped and the back AC/DC socket didn't line up with the hole. Jan returned the full amount I paid and has been responsive and easy to deal with. I have to say for one guy running his own little business he seems to do a great job.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaska /img/forum/go_quote.gif To make this more relevant to the Head-Fi business environment, Meier-Audio's ill-defined returns policy is, in practice, markedly less customer friendly than the policies of other major boutique vendors--who happen to be based in the USA.

Other head-fi related small company return policies:

ALO - does not accept returns (will fix problems only)

Headphile - does not accept returns (will fix problems only)

Headroom (headphone.com) - Quote:

"Assuming all "like-new*" conditions are fully met, we will gladly refund the purchase price of products in your order if you are not satisfied for any reason. However, SHIPPING COSTS ARE NEVER REFUNDABLE!"

Quables (a European company) - Quote:

After receipt of the returned goods Qables will refund in full to the Customer the invoice value of the Goods minus the transport costs and applicable payment transactions fees that Qables will be liable to. The Customer shall be liable for the postage costs to return the Goods to Qables.

Listen, I am not trying to get into an argument, and I AGREE that Jan needs to refine his policy, and of course comply with any laws. However, it simply isn't accurate to say he provides worse policies than other boutique head-fi vendors, nor is if fair to rake him over the coals for the policy itself, in my opinion. He needs to make the policy more clear, but his policy itself is perfectly reasonable.

In your specific case I think he should refund the 10 Euro, since you feel the policy wasn't clear. But once clarified, the policy is completely reasonable.

 

[Jan Meier]

Dear Headfellows,

Just a few remarks to clarify my position.

“ I have already written two emails to Jan but got no reply (contrary to very prompt replies”

Sorry Giulio, but your first mail was “missed” by mistake and for various reasons I could only answer your second mail after 2 days.

To all, although it is tried to answer all mails within 24 hours and although I normally work 7 days a week there are times that such is simply not possible. I’m sure you guys will understand. Business has grown continuously over the last few years and sometimes I simply don’t have the time. It is one of the reasons that I stopped selling headphones a few months ago. It was too much for a one-man company. Also, I do have a private life (at least I tend to believe I have).

As for the refund policy, by German Law people have 2 weeks to return their devices and to get a full refund. However, this applies to German customers only. (Actually I extended the trial period to 30 days myself and within Germany people do not have to prepay their orders, so they can simply return their amps without any financial transaction being involved).

To be honest, my experiences with this kind of refund policy are not always very positive. When a German customer returns an amp with the remark “Very good product but unfortunately I can not afford it”, then he did not have to order it in the first place. He knew that he could not pay for it from the beginning but simply wanted to have some listening fun but at my expenses. Even more rude was a customer who send me a mail “Nice amp but I don’t have the money for it. Either you give me a price reduction or I do have to return the amp”. I consider this a kind of black-mail.

With headphones the situation was even worse. It has happened that a person ordered six headphones simultaneously from different resellers, tried them all and then returned five of them. The costs for the resellers are immense and by far exceed any benefits of one of them.
And would you like to receive a headphone that has been used before? For hygienic reasons I always replaced the earpads on any headphone that was returned. That really costs money!

To prevent such situations orders from abroad have to be prepaid and people have to pay for shipping fees. It really helps to limit excesses as described above. More generous refund policies would simply increase costs and thereby the prices of my products. Somebody has to pay for it. and at the end this is the customer.

I honestly don’t mind if someone returns an amp because he/she doesn’t like the sound. Everybody hears differently and has a different taste. You simply can’t fit them all.

However, I do oppose to those people who always try to get their lunch for free.

Cheers

Jan

 

[Jaska]

Skylab,

First of all, it was my mistake that I wrote "boutique vendors" when what I had in mind was specifically "boutique amp vendors." I didn't want to mention any vendors in particular, but to clarify the point now that you've reacted to my statement, I'll mention RSA Audio and HeadAmp.

While I do not consider HeadRoom to be a "boutique vendor," but rather a full-fledged e-tailer of personal listening gear, I am fully aware of their extremely well-communicated customer service policies. I've never bought anything from them just to be clear, but with headphone returns, it appears that customers get a full refund when the product is returned within the stated time limit as long as the product remains in mint condition, less the understood two-way shipping costs. When Meier-Audio used to sell headphones, I recall that returns were met with not only return shipping costs (and I'll assume that he also deducted the original shipping cost as well), but also the cost of new ear pads, the price of which was not stated on the web site. Depending on the model of headphone in question, new replacement ear pads can be mighty expensive (think of HD600/HD650, for example). Now, maybe it was somehow a legal requirement for hygienic reasons to replace the ear pads before reselling the headphones, and I would respect that, but only if the cost of the ear pads was made clear up front. Here in Finland, under normal circumstances, opened/used headphones and earphones cannot be returned for credit due to hygienic reasons. No matter how this actually worked in practice, HeadRoom's policies are communicated much more clearly.

Quote:

Listen, I am not trying to get into an argument, and I AGREE that Jan needs to refine his policy, and of course comply with any laws.

That is the whole reason why I've chosen to post in this thread. It is not an inconsequential, trivial matter to operate outside the legal parameters of doing business in the EU, and there is no excuse for not becoming aware of what the governing laws are by "playing innocent." I have seen Jan use this forum as a sort of "Internet courtroom" himself for a particular matter where he felt his rights were violated, so I wonder why he won't take the time to clear things up for me (and others) about his own product return/refund policy here.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

However, it simply isn't accurate to say he provides worse policies than other boutique head-fi vendors

Again, I should have been more clear in specifying "boutique amp vendors."

Quote:

nor is it fair to rake him over the coals for the policy itself, in my opinion. He needs to make the policy more clear, but his policy itself is perfectly reasonable.

Sorry, but what isn't fair is that he refuses to refund the money to which I am legally entitled. I consider you (Skylab) to be a very nice and thoughtful person, but at the same time I would say that I don't think your relationship with Meier-Audio is a "typical" one. No further comment, and no harm intended.

Quote:

In your specific case I think he should refund the 10 Euro, since you feel the policy wasn't clear. But once clarified, the policy is completely reasonable.

It's not that I feel the policy was unclear. The policy was/is not clear, and I have provided you with further proof of this in the form of actual e-mails. Once more, this is not just a matter of being clear about a policy, it's about complying with the law.

 

[Jaska]

Correction to my own last post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaska /img/forum/go_quote.gif First of all, it was my mistake that I wrote "boutique vendors" when what I had in mind was specifically "boutique amp vendors." I didn't want to mention any vendors in particular, but to clarify the point now that you've reacted to my statement, I'll mention RSA Audio and HeadAmp.

After doing a bit of checking, it looks as though HeadAmp's return/refund policy is roughly the same as Meier-Audio's (based on my understanding). I can no longer find RSA Audio's policy on the web site, but I have seen it (in perhaps some former iteration) copied and pasted into other threads here on Head-Fi, and it seems to make no mention of shipping (unless I missed something, which is of course possible). I want to be clear that the comparison I made, using these two boutique amp vendors was not a well thought out one. I am definitely a person willing to recognize and admit his own mistakes, and I have done so on more than one occasion that I can recall in this forum.

In defense of the two fine American businessmen to whom I made reference, it must be understood that they do not have businesses based in the EU (or if they do, it's beyond my knowledge), and as such they shouldn't be expected to base their product return/refund policies on EU laws.

So, my sincere apologies to RSA Audio and HeadAmp. I should not have even brought up the names of your companies in the context of this thread, but should have come up with a different argument to make the point I wanted to make.

 

[Zerachiel]

Thanks Jan for the reply. I personally understand your position. It makes sense about German law applying only to domestic products, although i wonder then how the imports would pan out. If this German law expanded to all exports to foreign countries, I can imagine significant loss in the exported of certain products.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaska /img/forum/go_quote.gif I consider you (Skylab) to be a very nice and thoughtful person, but at the same time I would say that I don't think your relationship with Meier-Audio is a "typical" one. No further comment, and no harm intended.

I want to make something perfectly clear, and then I will not post further in this thread. I have *NO* relationship with Meier Audio other than to be a happy customer. Yes, I like his amps. And I have found him to be an incredibly helpful person to deal with. That's it. Insinuating anything else is just plain silly.

Jan has now clarified his position in this thread, and the thread has no further use.

Over and out.

 

[Jaska]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif I want to make something perfectly clear, and then I will not post further in this thread. I have *NO* relationship with Meier Audio other than to be a happy customer. Yes, I like his amps. And I have found him to be an incredibly helpful person to deal with. That's it. Insinuating anything else is just plain silly.

I did no name-calling, so there's no need to react so defensively. I think it's fair to consider that you are probably the most well-known proponent of the amps in question (do you disagree?), and that "typical" users don't often get sent product ranges of amps for review purposes. There is obviously a natural connection between high-profile positive amp reviews and sales of said amps, but I DID NOT say anything "plain silly" to suggest anything shady.

Quote:

Jan has now clarified his position in this thread, and the thread has no further use.

The way I'm reading it, an explanation of why it's inconvenient and expensive to run a business was given, but not much more. This thread may have no further use for you, but you are an American customer, and your own money has not been lost as a result of Meier-Audio's return/refund practices. Just because you're okay with the policy in question doesn't make it the legal way of doing things here, so please get that straight.

For any readers still following this thread, please try to keep in mind that I have no bad intentions. I bought a product which I found to be faulty upon first use, reported the fault immediately to the vendor, and to this point in time have received NO comment whatsoever from the vendor about the reported fault. In Finland (or Germany, or likely anywhere else in the EU), this simply isn't how things work. And I am not complaining only about the €10 deduction from my refund, but the return shipping that I also had to pay, so close to €25. As a Finnish-/EU-based purchaser of goods over the Internet, I am protected by very succinct laws which have been put into place for exactly this kind of unfortunate situation.

 

[skeptic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaska /img/forum/go_quote.gif I did no name-calling, so there's no need to react so defensively. I think it's fair to consider that you are probably the most well-known proponent of the amps in question (do you disagree?), and that "typical" users don't often get sent product ranges of amps for review purposes. There is obviously a natural connection between high-profile positive amp reviews and sales of said amps, but I DID NOT say anything "plain silly" to suggest anything shady.

I think you may be mistaken on this point. I have been lurking in this forum quite a bit in recent months, and it has been my distinct impression that Skylab is one of the most well-known proponents of tube amplifiers. In fact, it was only yesterday that he commented that his singlepower extreme was his favorite among his own: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/sin...45/index2.html

You might also take a closer look at his signature, as he does not appear to own any meier desktop models - only the 2move portable.

I empathize with your frustrations in this situation, but I think you're chasing phantoms in going after Skylab on this point.

Query - just out of curiosity, if the original price had been stated as $XXX + $Y in shipping, and you had only received the $XXX as a refund, would you have had a problem with it? As I see it, the written policy could certainly have been expressed more clearly, but I can come up with no sound logical or moral reason that a seller should have to bear the cost of shipping one way in addition to providing a no questions asked return policy. That would just be bad business.

 

[braillediver]

Back to the original topic- Jan Meier is a Saint and I trust him more than I trust my own brother. I bought my first pair of High-End headphones (HD600) from him and I bought my last pair (HE90) from him. There’s few people in the world I’d send that much money to and I sent it to Jan Confidant I was dealing with an Honest, Trust Worthy and Professional Man. My brother still owes me money.


Mitch

 

[greenhorn]

The OP has put a question and the answer has beed given since quite a while.

I have never dealt with a vendor more reliable and standing behind his products as Jan Meier. Here is is feedback thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f12/ve...an-meier-8760/ . It speaks for itself.

Whatever you do as a seller, you will never be able to keep all the customers satisfied.

 

[Jaska]

Quote:

Originally Posted by skeptic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Skylab is one of the most well-known proponents of tube amplifiers.

Yes, he loves rolling tubes. Nobody's denying that.

Quote:

You might also take a closer look at his signature, as he does not appear to own any meier desktop models - only the 2move portable.

He has long sung the praises of his Opera. Search the forum. He owns or has owned other Meier-Audio desktop amps as well. The list of gear in people's signatures understandably doesn't really mean much when they have the means to buy all the gear they want. There's simply too much of it to keep up to date, I figure.

Quote:

I think you're chasing phantoms in going after Skylab on this point.

No, you've got it all wrong. I'm not going after Skylab. It just doesn't surprise me in the least that he's defending Jan Meier as usual. That's par for the course, if you've been around long enough.

Quote:

Query - just out of curiosity, if the original price had been stated as $XXX + $Y in shipping, and you had only received the $XXX as a refund, would you have had a problem with it?

Yes.

Quote:

I can come up with no sound logical or moral reason that a seller should have to bear the cost of shipping one way in addition to providing a no questions asked return policy.

I can. EU, German and Finnish law. Jan seems to want to be able to run a business with no overhead at all, avoiding paying virtually any fee associated with selling goods, often advising people to send him hundreds of dollars/euros of cash in the mail, making a fuss over PayPal and credit card fees, etc. I could go on and on with other examples, but suffice it to say that his mode of operation seems to be clearly focused on the bottom line. As one of my favorite professors used to say, "all bottom line-driven organizations fail."

EU customers are offered protection against these fees because, for example, they have no opportunity to test the merchandise in a store. Did Jan pay overhead to keep the Arietta plugged in on a shelf in a retail shop and spend his personal time explaining the features of the amp to me and allowing me to spend my time auditioning the product in his store before committing to a purchase? No. Does the amp have the ability to turn the volume off? No. Should I have to pay 10 euros for an "administration fee" plus 11,10 euros (I've now located my postal receipt for claim purposes) to find out that the Arietta is defective? Certainly not. Refunding the full price paid, including shipping, and reimbursing return shipping charges is clearly the legal way to do business over the Internet between Germany and Finland.

I will try to say this to you kindly, but unless you understand how things work in the EU, please spare me your comments about what seems fair to you outside of this environment.

 

[jherbert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaska /img/forum/go_quote.gif Refunding the full price paid, including shipping, and reimbursing return shipping charges is clearly the legal way to do business over the Internet between Germany and Finland. I will try to say this to you kindly, but unless you understand how things work in the EU, please spare me your comments about what seems fair to you outside of this environment.

Jaska, I am afraid you do actually do not know much about german, european or international law for that matter. Maybe you know about the legal situation in finland, but from a german perspective there is a difference between sending someting from Berlin to Munich and from Berlin to Helsinki or San Francisco.

The most obvoious difference is shipping cost, and it really does not make any sense to expect that cost for sending back items internationally should be reembursed. In the case of the Arietta that cost easily could be more than 30 percent of the price.

Also according to german law it is perfectly ok to charge a restocking fee if the item sent back is not in as new condition. You can always argue what that might mean, but just look at all the people who complain about broken seals.

Honestly, I rather have a less friendly return policy than higher prices. There are already enough people that act in the way Jan described. We all pay for what they are doing.

Also you claim the Arietta you bought to be "defective". Well it is not, but designed in the way you described. Jan mentions that somewhere on his website.

Now, come to reason.

 

[Jaska]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jherbert /img/forum/go_quote.gif Jaska, I am afraid you do actually do not know much about german, european or international law for that matter.

What do you know about what I know? Prove to me that you have the legally correct answers to this problem. For a starting point, you might want to check out the Distance Selling Directive of the European Consumer Centre, as well as Chapter 6 of the Consumer Protection Act.

Quote:

Also you claim the Arietta you bought to be "defective". Well it is not, but designed in the way you described. Jan mentions that somewhere on his website.

I would ask you to show me this. Interestingly, Skylab makes no mention of this flaw in his review of the entire Meier-Audio home amp lineup, but admits it in this thread. In no way does that make it his fault as he is not (and I will go on record as saying this) an official representative of Meier-Audio, but it strikes me as odd that such a fundamental flaw could slip past a careful reviewer.

Quote:

Now, come to reason.

I am being reasonable.

 

[cosmopragma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jherbert /img/forum/go_quote.gif Jaska, I am afraid you do actually do not know much about german, european or international law for that matter.

You don't have much clue either, but after all this is no lawyers forum.
I do respect Jan Meier for what he has done for our hobby.I even met him twice and he's a nice guy, but that's not the issue.
What Jaska asks for is that a mail order service acts according to european customer protection law and that's not unreasonable.
Abiding to the law is sometimes costly but that's no good reason to weasel out of it.
We all know there are fifty ways for a seller to circumvent it since everybody knows that a lawsuit for 20 Euros is unreasonable, but such a behaviour is still shady.
"Administrative fee", my azz, if he'd done this to me my retaliation would have costed him a grand.Can you spell "Abmahnung", the costly (for the offender) german way to deal with such affairs?

Edit : I've fixed the broken link