[JaMo]

Better clocking can improve transmission indeed. It is likely a factor.

Asynch usb audio is not asynch if we consider things at a higher level of analysis. The receiver receives messages from the sender, telling it to slow down or to accelerate, such that in average, audio data is sent at the required rate. This
means they synchronize which each other in that sense.

Asynch usb audio is based on synch usb audio. Asynch usb audio adds these rate regulation messages to the protocol. These messages are not needed (or almost not) when both devices are clocked with the same reference. For this to work, the sending computer needs to be clocked by the ext reference. Clocking the usb card with the reference likely helps improving transmission at the lower level, but will do nothing for the synching i am refering to.

Thank You very much Fred for this very informative and educational writing. Good stuff!
/Jan

 

[FredA]

1. Then it MUST be false/incorrect! Ethernet (and USB) exist as international protocols because they are fully empirically evidenced. If they were not, they would not work and there would be no internet.

2. As “clean square waves” with “nice, sharply defined leading and trailing edges” cannot exist, the Ethernet (USB and other) protocols do not specify such an impossibility and therefore (again) would never work. In fact, the protocols specify the rise and fall times. Less than the specified rise and fall times therefore does NOT make the “recipient device’s job easier”.

It makes no difference to re-buffering at all or to processor demands. As long as the rise/fall times are within the specification for the protocol, there will be no re-buffering.

A network switch buffers, reads and retransmits the data, so the effect cannot be cumulative and if it were, then (again) the internet could NOT exist.

G

Noise is a factor in digital audio, the biggest factor there is. Using fancy ethernet switch helps keeping noise low in two ways:

1. Better transmission (less noisy, better clocked signals) reduces the needs for error correction. Less signaling means less noise generated.
2. Less noisy signals means less noise contaminates the audio streamer /computer. That effect is only possible with devices that are silent in the first place.

 

[gregorio]

Asynch usb audio is not asynch if we consider things at a higher level of analysis.

There is no higher level of analysis, the USB protocol doesn’t include it and wouldn’t work if it did! I’m not sure where you got all your assertions from, are you just “guessing” it all or did you get it from some audiophile marketing?

The receiver receives messages from the sender, telling it to slow down or to accelerate, such that in average, audio data is sent at the required rate.

No, it doesn’t. There’s not even any provision for that in the USB protocol. The receiver operates at whichever USB protocol speed it operates at, it does not slow down or speed up.

Noise is a factor in digital audio, the biggest factor there is.

That’s the exact opposite of the actual truth and is the whole reason why digital audio was invented in the first place and why digital data works at all!! If noise were the biggest factor and if using a “fancy internet switch” really did make a difference/keep noise low, then you would not be able to download music, audio or in fact any digital data over the internet, you’re not really claiming that are you?

Thank You very much Fred for this very informative and educational writing. Good stuff!

It is a lot of information but it’s neither informative nor educational, it’s just plain wrong, that is NOT how either USB or Ethernet works! It is therefore NOT “good stuff”, unless you actually want to be misinformed and miseducated, which I assume you don’t do you?

G

 

[xkamran]

There is no higher level of analysis, the USB protocol doesn’t include it and wouldn’t work if it did! I’m not sure where you got all your assertions from, are you just “guessing” it all or did you get it from some audiophile marketing?

No, it doesn’t. There’s not even any provision for that in the USB protocol. The receiver operates at whichever USB protocol speed it operates at, it does not slow down or speed up.

That’s the exact opposite of the actual truth and is the whole reason why digital audio was invented in the first place and why digital data works at all!! If noise were the biggest factor and if using a “fancy internet switch” really did make a difference/keep noise low, then you would not be able to download music, audio or in fact any digital data over the internet, you’re not really claiming that are you?

It is a lot of information but it’s neither informative nor educational, it’s just plain wrong, that is NOT how either USB or Ethernet works! It is therefore NOT “good stuff”, unless you actually want to be misinformed and miseducated, which I assume you don’t do you?

G

Hey respectfully. Are you saying there is no such thing as jitter or noise coming from a device which can effect sound?

 

[FredA]

There is no higher level of analysis, the USB protocol doesn’t include it and wouldn’t work if it did! I’m not sure where you got all your assertions from, are you just “guessing” it all or did you get it from some audiophile marketing?

No, it doesn’t. There’s not even any provision for that in the USB protocol. The receiver operates at whichever USB protocol speed it operates at, it does not slow down or speed up.

That’s the exact opposite of the actual truth and is the whole reason why digital audio was invented in the first place and why digital data works at all!! If noise were the biggest factor and if using a “fancy internet switch” really did make a difference/keep noise low, then you would not be able to download music, audio or in fact any digital data over the internet, you’re not really claiming that are you?

It is a lot of information but it’s neither informative nor educational, it’s just plain wrong, that is NOT how either USB or Ethernet works! It is therefore NOT “good stuff”, unless you actually want to be misinformed and miseducated, which I assume you don’t do you?

G

Everyone is allowed his/her opinion. I won't argue with you, i got better things to do.

 

[gregorio]

Hey respectfully. Are you saying there is no such thing as jitter or noise coming from a device which can effect sound?

No. We can make a device or deliberately apply jitter which not only can affect sound but can actually be audible. However, even cheap consumer audio devices from 25-30 years ago produced jitter over a hundred times below audibility. In the case of Ethernet (or async USB), if standard switches really did result in more noise and/or there were some cumulative effect, then the internet simply could not work.

G

 

[camrector]

Better clocking can improve transmission indeed. It is likely a factor.

Asynch usb audio is not asynch if we consider things at a higher level of analysis. The receiver receives messages from the sender, telling it to slow down or to accelerate, such that in average, audio data is sent at the required rate. This
means they synchronize which each other in that sense.

Asynch usb audio is based on synch usb audio. Asynch usb audio adds these rate regulation messages to the protocol. These messages are not needed (or almost not) when both devices are clocked with the same reference. For this to work, the sending computer needs to be clocked by the ext reference. Clocking the usb card with the reference likely helps improving transmission at the lower level, but will do nothing for the synching i am refering to.

None of this is factual, or educational.
This is not what happens. Lol

 

[xkamran]

No. We can make a device or deliberately apply jitter which not only can affect sound but can actually be audible. However, even cheap consumer audio devices from 25-30 years ago produced jitter over a hundred times below audibility. In the case of Ethernet (or async USB), if standard switches really did result in more noise and/or there were some cumulative effect, then the internet simply could not work.

G

Well logically you are correct. If this is a fact than all these companies are making fancy products to capture a market which is easily effected by overspending habits and are susceptible to placebo effect ? Not mocking you. So fancy usb cables etc are snake oil?

 

[camrector]

There is no higher level of analysis, the USB protocol doesn’t include it and wouldn’t work if it did! I’m not sure where you got all your assertions from, are you just “guessing” it all or did you get it from some audiophile marketing?

No, it doesn’t. There’s not even any provision for that in the USB protocol. The receiver operates at whichever USB protocol speed it operates at, it does not slow down or speed up.

That’s the exact opposite of the actual truth and is the whole reason why digital audio was invented in the first place and why digital data works at all!! If noise were the biggest factor and if using a “fancy internet switch” really did make a difference/keep noise low, then you would not be able to download music, audio or in fact any digital data over the internet, you’re not really claiming that are you?

It is a lot of information but it’s neither informative nor educational, it’s just plain wrong, that is NOT how either USB or Ethernet works! It is therefore NOT “good stuff”, unless you actually want to be misinformed and miseducated, which I assume you don’t do you?

G

Ugh thank you!!
I was about to start writing this myself, but you beat me to it!!

 

[FredA]

None of this is factual, or educational.
This is not what happens. Lol

I won't argue with you either. Lost too much time at this already. you are clearly son of the Audio God. No pun intended.

 

[camrector]

I won't argue with you either. Lost too much time at this already. you are clearly son of the Audio God. No pun intended.

I just understand how digital audio, usb, Ethernet, and clocks actually work.
You can literally read about it from 1000s of sources, or go to school and major in computer science.

Well logically you are correct. If this is a fact than all these companies are making fancy products to capture a market which is easily effected by overspending habits and are susceptible to placebo effect ? Not mocking you. So fancy usb cables etc are snake oil?

Placebo, and confirmation bias for the most part.
Audio companies add sonic coloration by varying levels of “harmonic spurri”, applying different digital filtering etc etc.
Much like how HQplayer works. It’s just some math applied and processing.

 

[gregorio]

Everyone is allowed his/her opinion. I won't argue with you, i got better things to do.

Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion but also of course that doesn’t make their opinion actually true/correct. There are some with the opinion that the earth is flat but obviously, that doesn’t mean the earth is actually flat.

Ethernet and USB are international protocols, with precise published specifications. You can have a different opinion to the actual published facts but it is false/incorrect.

you are clearly son of the Audio God.

Not at all, I just know the basics of the USB and Ethernet protocols (and digital audio/communications in general). If it required an Audio God to know how USB/Ethernet works there would obviously be no network engineers and no internet.

So fancy usb cables etc are snake oil?

Either a cable complies with the relevant USB protocol and therefore will work perfectly with USB compliant devices or it’s not a USB cable. Of course, some might prefer a fancy usb cable due to it’s visual appearance.

G

 

[FredA]

For those actually interested in asynch usb audio, this article is relevant

https://www.electronicdesign.com/te...ticle/21801786/achieving-bitperfect-usb-audio

 

[OCC7N]

@duffer5 your R7hemk3 is not affected as it will use ock-2 as masterclock for either i2s or usb input on the dack, as it has been implemented on the playback side which means all inputs benefits no matter how you feed it.

You streamer receives masterclock(ock-2) input and delivers the reclocked signal to either i2s or usb output.

When your R7 is set to the external its the same for i2s and usb input.

If you listen to PCM and the normal files you have nothing to worry about. However DSD and pin configuration may differ: streamer vs R7.

(I would have recommended you the DI20HE first over a master clock - but ock-2 anyway for the future. Using the streamers usb output. DI20HE has a very good clock)

 

[camrector]

For those actually interested in asynch usb audio, this article is relevant

https://www.electronicdesign.com/te...ticle/21801786/achieving-bitperfect-usb-audio

How can you write a bunch of nonsense then post an article (that explains what you wrote is nonsense) to try to show you know what you are talking about? Lol