[Torq]

  I'm curios for what a headphone did you use with MHA100 as if you looked to the HEK thread you can see obviously a lot of appreciation of it.
Regarding to the built in DAC in fact it is decent and the main object from MHA100 is to be as an pre-amp and amplifier.
For Mojo, can you elaborate the difference between it as a DAC and the built in DAC in MHA100.
Eventually, for your last statement, did you mean that you are preferring Mojo DAC/AMP over MHA100 DAC/AMP.

For this evaluation, Abyss, LCD-4 and HD800S.  I've also heard the MHA100 with the LCD-X, LCD-3 and Oppo PM-1.
 
It was entirely lackluster with all of them.
 
That others like it is fine for them. I don't.  I think the DAC is rather poor, even as a "we'll just throw one in" afterthought, for a product at this level.  But as I said in my notes, you wouldn't buy it just to use as a DAC.  Personally I think they'd have been better off just leaving it out.
 
I can't imagine how it sounds any better with the HE-1000 - strikes me that'd be an overly laid back presentation combined with a headphone that I find a bit too mellow or soft to begin with. That said, I've not tried it with that headphone - not much point ... even when I did a headphone shootout which included the HE-1000 and much more lively amplification and sources it did not wind up being the one I wanted to own.  Tastes differ, of course, and for people who like that sort of thing, its the sort of thing they like.  
 
For me, the MHA100 would be like listening to a James Last cover of "20 Golden Greats" vs. the originals ... and with the HE-1000 it'd be the 45 RPM version being spun at 33 RPM.
 
And I quite like the HE-1000 on their own, with suitable sources and amps - just not enough to buy them for myself given both competition from other manufacturers and HiFiMan's own Edition X.
 
..
 
I'm not going to do an item-by-item breakdown of how the Mojo beats the DAC in the Macintosh unit.  It'd be very repetitive reading.  The Mojo is ahead in every area I could describe, both technically and musically.
 
..
 
And, yes, I would rather listen to headphones directly out of just the Mojo (using it as both DAC and amp) than to listen to the MHA100.

 

[Torq]

  One more thing, which one did you preferred Bifrost MB or Mojo as a DAC when you connected them with MHA100. 

The Mojo is slightly smoother in its presentation than the Bifrost MB, and the Mojo has a slight, apparent, roll-off at the upper frequency extremes (noticeable more with IEMs), where as the Bifrost has a bit more going on up top.  As a pairing, then, I'd use a Bifrost MB with the MHA100 as the MHA100 seems overly smooth as it is and is, for me, a better match for this amp as a result.
 
To be clear though - I'd prefer not to listen via the MHA100 at all.  I think it can be easily beaten as a DAC/headphone amplifier at a fraction of it's price.  Maybe it shines with speakers.  Maybe it's great with high-impedance dynamic cans.  I don't know,  But whatever it is, I do know that it is very definitely not for me. 

 

[Torq]

  Just have a question to Torq:
 
Do Chord Dave sounds more "analog" than Metrum Pavane?

We'll have to see when I have those units side-by-side for my final auditions - at this level of performance, relying on audio-memory from weeks after the event for much more than a gross did/didn't like comparison is a bit dodgy.
 
So, sorry, can't reliably answer that at the moment!

 

[ToroFiestaSol]

 
We'll have to see when I have those units side-by-side for my final auditions - at this level of performance, relying on audio-memory from weeks after the event for much more than a gross did/didn't like comparison is a bit dodgy.
 
So, sorry, can't reliably answer that at the moment!

 
Thanks for your honest answer, that's what I like about your impressions and opinions, your honesty.
In a forum full of dealers dressed as reviewers, it's refreshing to have someone like you.

 

[Peaceofmind]

Hey Torq, which digital inputs (Toslink, Coax or USB) do you use on your Mojo, are all inputs pretty much the same SQ wise?

 

[Torq]

Hey Torq, which digital inputs (Toslink, Coax or USB) do you use on your Mojo, are all inputs pretty much the same SQ wise?

I use optical with my DAP (original AK120) and if I'm using it with one of my desktop machines (which is usually only if I'm testing something).  And then USB with with my iPhone/iPad or with my laptops (one of which could also use optical, but USB cables travel better and it's one less thing to carry).
 
I prefer the optical input, but that assumes a proper cable (say, a Lifatec, which are not expensive and pretty easily out-spec the competition, or a Sys Concepts one - which I use on the go), but the differences are not that large unless you have a horrible source.

 

[iDesign]

I've never really compared them back to back at any length, so I'm going from memory somewhat. Not that that is particularly hard in this case as I don't care for the DAC in the 430HAD at all ... as in "I just don't like it", and I find it unsatisfying musically, so it's a non-starter for me. The only way I'd want to use the 430 is with an external DAC, making it pointless as an integrated unit. And the Hugo TT, while clearly better than Mojo, is more alike than different and I'd have a seriously hard time convincing myself that I was getting anything worth 7x the little guy's price.

Of the two, if I was forced to choose one of them, and if it was always, and only, going to be used as an integrated DAC and amp, I'd go with the Hugo TT.

But, really, I would not buy either of them at all if I was spending my own money.

If the Moon was viable physically for the place I wanted an integrated unit, then I'd be able to make a compact separate DAC/amp work too (even if that wound up being a 430HA fed with a Mojo or a Bifrost MB). I could see getting a Hugo TT if I found one used for no more than 60% of its list price, otherwise Mojo is close enough for any scenario where I'd be forced into using an integrated unit.

For anyone else - you'd really have to audition them to see.

This is a great post and your impressions are totally consistent with my own thoughts about the 430HAD, Hugo TT, and Mojo. I have been very, very impressed by the Mojo a discounted/used Hugo TT seems to be the logical progression for an integrated desktop solution (another argument for a lower cost Mojo TT). I assume the Mjolnir 2 and Gungnir Multibit is your top pick for an under $5k system? 

 

[rblaiklock]

For me, the MHA100 would be like listening to a James Last cover of "20 Golden Greats" vs. the originals ... and with the HE-1000 it'd be the 45 RPM version being spun at 33 RPM.

James Last - wow, that's a name I haven't heard in decades. I remember my parents listening to his albums on our old console. That takes me back.

 

[Torq]

James Last - wow, that's a name I haven't heard in decades. I remember my parents listening to his albums on our old console. That takes me back.

 
Indeed.
 
Not the high-point in my familial musical history.  My mother ate that stuff up.  Fortunately my father had slightly more developed musical tastes.
 
With a bit of luck, it'll be the last time his name or recordings come to mind ...  some things are best left forgotten (short of developing a time machine and altering history so they never occurred in the first place).

 

[Torq]

 

I've never really compared them back to back at any length, so I'm going from memory somewhat. Not that that is particularly hard in this case as I don't care for the DAC in the 430HAD at all ... as in "I just don't like it", and I find it unsatisfying musically, so it's a non-starter for me. The only way I'd want to use the 430 is with an external DAC, making it pointless as an integrated unit. And the Hugo TT, while clearly better than Mojo, is more alike than different and I'd have a seriously hard time convincing myself that I was getting anything worth 7x the little guy's price.

Of the two, if I was forced to choose one of them, and if it was always, and only, going to be used as an integrated DAC and amp, I'd go with the Hugo TT.

But, really, I would not buy either of them at all if I was spending my own money.

If the Moon was viable physically for the place I wanted an integrated unit, then I'd be able to make a compact separate DAC/amp work too (even if that wound up being a 430HA fed with a Mojo or a Bifrost MB). I could see getting a Hugo TT if I found one used for no more than 60% of its list price, otherwise Mojo is close enough for any scenario where I'd be forced into using an integrated unit.

For anyone else - you'd really have to audition them to see.

This is a great post and your impressions are totally consistent with my own thoughts about the 430HAD, Hugo TT, and Mojo. I have been very, very impressed by the Mojo a discounted/used Hugo TT seems to be the logical progression for an integrated desktop solution (another argument for a lower cost Mojo TT). I assume the Mjolnir 2 and Gungnir Multibit is your top pick for an under $5k system? 

 
That would depend greatly on the constraints placed on said $5K system.  For example, is space a concern?  Does the $5K include the headphones, cables and so on?  Or is that just the budget for the DAC/amp?

 

[iDesign]

That would depend greatly on the constraints placed on said $5K system.  For example, is space a concern?  Does the $5K include the headphones, cables and so on?  Or is that just the budget for the DAC/amp?

DAC/amp only.

 

[Torq]

DAC/amp only.

 
Bear in mind I am not ready to make a decision based on the results of the auditions I have done so far in this thread, so do not confuse my response here with a final choice of a potential new DAC for my own use.  For a start, the amp I'd recommend in this situation is NOT the one I'd be pairing the DAC I'm looking for with (it, alone, would blow this budget), and I'm not done evaluating DACs here, so it's too early to make any concrete recommendations on those.
 
But ... a DAC/amp only, with no other constraints ... for under $5K ... and I'll assume we're buying new.
 
I would (and did when I made my choices last year) go with Yggdrasil and Ragnarok.  That comes out to just under $4K.  I don't think you can beat Yggdrasil at it's price point - I certainly haven't found anything that does so for me.  And there's a special synergy I find with those two components that yields more than the sum of its parts too, so this is a very effective combination and one that is particularly hard to beat.
 
You could do Mjolnir 2 and Gungir for $2100 and that'd be a very high value system, but it would fall short of the Yggdrasil/Ragnarok pairing by enough that I'd want the bigger rig.
 
Other options ... a PS Audio DirectStream Junior (with trade-in) with Ragnarok, or a Gungnir MB with either a GS-X Mk2 or a Moon 430HA would also be very pleasant and still come in under budget.  The slight additional warmth I find in Gungnir MB pairs well with the relatively dry/analytical (not meant in a negative way) presentation of both the Moon and Headamp units.
 
Another path would be Gungnir MB with a standard Woo WA5-LE ... and that would work, but you'd probably want to swap the stock tubes to use it with Gungnir MB or you'd be a bit "wetter" than might be ideal - and that then wouldn't fit in the budget.
 
But my choice, right now, for under $5K, if I didn't have what I already have, and as I'm still evaluating my next DAC purchase, would be Yggdrasil/Ragnarok.

 

[knopi]

 
I'm looking for a DAC that beats Yggdrasil across the board. 

 
Wow this thread is full of mini reviews hard to read it all, great job Torq.
I will try to get Yggy for test..
 
One tip this unknown GredAudio pDAC-2 looks absolutely phenomenal to me and it is very popular in my country. Price is 3000-3200euros.
 
Did you have chance try classic Meitner MA1 dac? Or some B.M.C dacs Pure MK2/Ultra/DAC1 (although chasis is ugly )? 

 

[Torq]

   
Wow this thread is full of mini reviews hard to read it all, great job Torq.
I will try to get Yggy for test..
 
One tip this unknown GredAudio pDAC-2 looks absolutely phenomenal to me and it is very popular in my country. Price is 3000-3200euros.
 
Did you have chance try classic Meitner MA1 dac? Or some B.M.C dacs Pure MK2/Ultra/DAC1 (although chasis is ugly )? 

 
Thanks!
 
And thanks for the suggestions.
 
The first post, incidentally, contains links to all the impressions I've written up so far - which should make the thread a lot easier to navigate.
 
Other than the Meitner, I'd not heard of these DACs - nor come across them while looking for candidates.  I imagine that, were I still looking for DACs to add to the list, that getting an audition would wind up being harder than having such things show up in a Google search (at least that fall within a reasonable number of pages from the start of the results).
 
The GredAudio looks interesting, but falls foul of my "I try very hard not to use USB for audio" persuasion.  I've yet to hear even very expensive USB fixes (multiple boxes, expensive cables etc.) beat a simple, proper, TOSLINK connection from a decent source, let alone AES/EBU.  And, despite the manufacturer here taking significant measures to avoid the issues that come with USB audio, at the end of the day there is no getting around the fact that they're spending money to fix a problem that doesn't need to exist.  That cost could be shaved from the price, or invested elsewhere in the implementation, so fundamentally that goes against the grain for me.
 
This is exacerbated by my experiments with network audio interfaces which have, so far, been very promising (the real evaluation process for those starts tomorrow, however).  Those interfaces generally don't support USB connectivity, tending towards either AES/EBU or TOSLINK (though some have COAX and USB ...) and it's very likely that my future listening is going to be via one of these interfaces.  And then, when these boxes DO support USB output, they tend to have issues with anything that doesn't look TOTALLY standard.  Some optical isolators just don't result in the DAC being recognized with some of the interfaces.  The Intona, for example, was very hit and miss in that regard ... good results (though still behind TOSLINK and AES/EBU in my setup) but not worth the fiddling around for me.
 
So, even if I could get an audition of the GredAudio - my interest would be severely blunted by the USB-only interface.

 

[Torq]

On the subject of ugly chassis ...
 
That's one thing that I don't get ... while I appreciate good aesthetic design, if you're not going to keep things simple and non-shouty with your design, then at least make the usage of the unit something that can be "plug it in, turn it on, leave it alone" so I can hide the damn thing in a cabinet and just keep the pretty stuff on display.
 
I consider things like DAVE and while I imagine the look of the thing in it's stand is very appealing to some, to me it's just fussy and rather ugly.  So much so that it is just not something I'd want on display in my home.  That's not too much of an issue, given that I preferred listening to it with my headphones via my WA5-LE (there's an almost indiscernible loss in transparency, but otherwise I liked it amped better than directly from it's headphone output - at least with 2 out of 3 of my main headphones).  Though the operational ergonomics of the unit are still not ideal from the perspective of wanting to hide the thing from view/access.
 
Anyway, I digress ...