haloxt
Headphoneus Supremus
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It makes the drug companies look bad when many of the drugs they want us to buy are less efficient than placebo.
Originally Posted by Torr /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is a fact there is no physical audible difference between a well made low end cable and the most expensive high end cables. We can prove this scientifically not just with double blind tests, but by using oscilloscopes and other tools to verify that the signal coming from one cable is indistinguishable to the signal coming from another. Yet, we can also prove that once filtered through the human mind, the powerful placebo effect causes the perception of a very real and oftentimes profound improvement in audio when using high end cables. So, is it morally wrong to produce and sell high end cables? If a person is in great pain and a placebo could make them feel better, would it be wrong to prescribe them a placebo? Would it be wrong if the placebo cost $100? What about $1,000? $100,000? Is it ever wrong? |
Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif It makes the drug companies look bad when many of the drugs they want us to buy are less efficient than placebo. |
Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif Many times in history and it will continue to be the case, some things remain undiscovered until late because the looker wasn't looking in the right place or the experimenter was measuring the wrong thing. The grave assumption here is that one can measure all that a human will hear under the influence of a cable change. We shouldn't be too smug and conclusively factual about there being no difference when the tests we run fail to demonstrate a difference. |
Originally Posted by Torr /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is only the assumption with the instrument based tests. Double blind tests account for the possibility that there are things we have failed to measure. Unfortunately, high end cables consistently fail both types of tests. |
Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif Some work and some don't. We make such claims through the trials we undertake. |
Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Who is we? You in the medical industry? Sure people need an open mind, especially the pharmaceutical industry when they can sell some pills for $200 a pop. |
Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif Double blind tests fail with amp types and compression formats as well. I don't hear anyone claiming that amps or compression formats don't make a difference. |
Originally Posted by Torr /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Double blind tests I am aware of do not indicate that there is no difference between any two properly constructed amps. What some rather infamous double blind tests have shown is that it is difficult for anyone to pick out which amp is which through double blind testing if they are set up identically to a neutral volume that is good for all of them. This is very different from asking whether they sound different. Most people in the infamous double blind test you are probably referring to could tell there is a difference in the audio, they just couldn't tell which one was the expensive amp and which one was the cheap one. Compression formats are a different topic entirely. With compression formats we are dealing with efficiency of compression....let's not get that far off topic. |
Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif aimlink, I think placebo is different in medical research and cable testing. It is generally difficult to remove placebo in medical experiments with human test subjects, even with a huge number of people, for example, let's say you have a pill that makes people fart, how do you figure out if this effect of the pill is highly conducive to placebo or not and how we'll have to interpret the data to compensate? On the other hand, dbt cable testing is immune to placebo. |
Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif There's no placebo in double blind testing of cables. In a medical experiment you give each test subject one type of pill for a long while. In a cable experiment you give all test subjects the same two cables alternating. Let's say it is a cable test where a test subject is given a remote with three buttons, A for cable 1, B for cable 2, C for randomly picking cable 1 or cable 2 to make an input. The test subject may suffer from placebo for button A or button B, but not button C. |
Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can't remove the placebo effect by hiding the identity of the company pills. Let's say one of the pills has the strange side effect of harmlessly turning people orange (like mega dose of carotene), how can you figure the ultimate effect it will have on people's placebo response and how to interpret the data? I agree that having more test subjects would be nice for a cable test though, I'm all for brute force experimentation, but only a rich company like Nordost can afford it, and if I was them you know I would rather fudge data than admit I am wrong |