Just a stand-alone crossfeed, please
Jan 4, 2021 at 11:09 PM Post #16 of 51
It's frustrating that there are no standalone crossfeed units anymore! Back in the day, I'd be able to commission one of the DIYers here to build one. Has anyone found anything that fits the bill?
Yeah ... ANALOG crossfeeds, using very-high-quality (boutique) parts, are ideal.
I bought a few of Tangent's x-feed kits, many years ago, and use them daily.
Tangent, on his web site, still has the PCB Gerber files. So I recently had a PCB company create several of them. And now I have in my possession several of the same PCBs (Mod. Linkwitz) Tangent offered many years ago. Getting stuffing parts is another chore but most stuff is avail from DK or Mouser.
The sonic importance to headphone listening is priceless ....
I'm gonna build up some more just to have as spares. If I ever do decide to go into the x-feed-for-sale biz, I'm gonna charge fer 'em ... big time!!! ($300-500/EACH ... at the very least). Even in a group buy situation. You want it cheap? ... you know where the Gerber files are!
 
Jan 5, 2021 at 6:12 PM Post #17 of 51
I reached out to Soundingenuity.com about building a crossfeed unit. The initial response -- and the only response I've received so far -- was asking if I heard of Schiit Audio? I quickly responded saying "yes," but that I didn't see such a product on their website. I'm waiting to here back. Meanwhile, I emailed Schiit about whether crossfeed was "even on their radar," and got back a response saying "we are unable to discuss new products and/or upgrades/updates before release."

Therefore, I must conclude that Schiit is working on a crossfeed unit.
 
Jan 6, 2021 at 6:04 PM Post #18 of 51
Therefore, I must conclude that Schiit is working on a crossfeed unit.

The reply you got looks like the company's usual and reasonable MO. After all, it's reasonable to not talk about stuff before it's released or at the very least announced :)
 
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Jan 12, 2021 at 10:35 AM Post #19 of 51
The best xfeed I've heard is the one implemented in Headroom devices.
I think Headroom used to offer a stand-alone xfeed unit. Anyone recall what that model was?
 
Feb 10, 2021 at 10:55 AM Post #20 of 51
iFi, et. al,


You should:
(a) Try to market/sell your x-feed as a STAND-ALONE product.
(b) Call it "crossfeed". Or "analog crossfeed". Don't call it call it "3D". This is confusing. I'm not too sure who iFi's prmary market is. However, most headphone enthusiasts know what x-feed (crossfeed), highly respect it for that, is and often buy products based on that familiarity. "3D" is confusing terminology -- it sounds like some sort of digital holographic simulator (like Hughes SRS, or other FAILED and long-abandoned concepts). Analog crossfeed is REAL, effective, TRUSTED and has been used for many decades in myriad headphone amps ... and the well-established terminology is very familiar to audiophiles.
 
Feb 10, 2021 at 5:11 PM Post #21 of 51
iFi, et. al,


You should:
(a) Try to market/sell your x-feed as a STAND-ALONE product.
(b) Call it "crossfeed". Or "analog crossfeed". Don't call it call it "3D". This is confusing. I'm not too sure who iFi's prmary market is. However, most headphone enthusiasts know what x-feed (crossfeed), highly respect it for that, is and often buy products based on that familiarity. "3D" is confusing terminology -- it sounds like some sort of digital holographic simulator (like Hughes SRS, or other FAILED and long-abandoned concepts). Analog crossfeed is REAL, effective, TRUSTED and has been used for many decades in myriad headphone amps ... and the well-established terminology is very familiar to audiophiles.

We might at some point, but at the moment we're very much into our own currently ongoing crowd-design thingine here: https://ifi-audio.com/crowd-design/

For many people it's appealing to have one magic button that does all the work for their cans :wink:
 
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Feb 13, 2021 at 2:30 AM Post #22 of 51
@alphaman FYI iFi 3D effect is NOT crossfeed. It does NOT mix left and right channel. Instead, it boosts lower treble and subbass for a wow factor. A very gimmicky EQ, basically. I owned the original micro iDSD, not sure if the technology had improved in the later iteration.

I myself is in the same boat, looking for a standalone crossfeed device. I simply cannot understand how people on this site listen to and comment about music without crossfeed. Unless you've never listened to stereo speakers in your life, you'd know that music on headphones with no crossfeed simply does not sound right. The bass does not sound right. The imaging does not sound right. It shouldn't even be a matter of preference.
 
Feb 13, 2021 at 2:35 AM Post #23 of 51
Do you think the HeadRoom's Total Airhead and/or Portable Micro is worth a try?
 
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Feb 13, 2021 at 12:43 PM Post #24 of 51
I have a Little More Power with Headroom's Premium module (I had Headroom do that on a custom request -- The Little stock came with their Standard module). I further modded the PSU with better caps, snubbers, etc. I estimate it is competitive with the "Max".
In non-crossfeed mode, my PPAv2 and Meier Corda 2 are superior. But when comparing crossfeeds, the Headroom wins out ... maybe because it is an ACTIVE crossfeed ckt (Meier and Linkwitz are passive). Dunno ????
And yes .... analog xfeed is the way to go .... even for ultra portable amps .... anyone remember the Xin amps?
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/xin-supermacro-iii-v6-impressions.226290/
http://web.archive.org/web/20070607193631/http://www.fixup.net/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1759

imgp1968.jpg
 
Feb 14, 2021 at 8:49 AM Post #25 of 51
Hi,

This is an interesting subject.

I have built...
And they all sound different.

Naturally they do, because they all implement different circuitry, different coefficients of cross coupling channels etc.

Also, non of these systems leave a flat frequency response for the "Mid" or "Mono" signal and non have the exact same change of frequency response, so in addition to "Crossfeeding" they act as unpredictable EQ.

Hence they all should sound quite different.

What I find worse, all these crossfeed circuits, while successfully counteracting the "in head" localisation lead to a stereo image that is very narrow, I call the result "wide mono".

In the 80's a team at the RFZ (of which I was a peripheral part being a very, very junior engineer) in Berlin worked on an improved stereo format that was intended to be backwards compatible with existing stereo equipment. The 80's were an exciting time for that sort of thing, we also saw Ambisonics developed back then.

The new format would be able to be passed through a suitable simple and easily mass produced decoding matrix to give a correct and improved presentation of space via speakers (with speakers the LF image is too narrow and the HF image width is too large).

Decoding to headphones would match a dummy head recording, while giving good stereo imaging results played without decoding.

There was an intention for a similar encoding matrix on the recording side, which would encode any common format, including dummy head stereo into the new stereo format. Grand idea really.

This target was never reached, but among other things crossfeed circuits were evaluated and modified.

In the end the best solution found on the headphone decoding side used a M/S system that processed only the "Side" channel. Coefficients were empirically determined by many Tonmeister's to offer the closest match to listening to speakers.

During the original tests there was a widely adjustable parametric EQ in the side channel with the mid signal untouched. Every Tonmeister was asked to adjust to their preference from the basic setting (which was some generic crossfeed). The comparison standard was a pair of large format studio monitors in the same room.

From there a consensus emerged which was radically different from previously published crossfeed circuitry.

Later a simplified fixed hardware circuit was tested based on an "average" of the different settings and found to to give satisfactory results to each participant's, with materially reduced audible colorations, compared to using the adjustable EQ.

The program was terminated even a while before the German Reunification, when it became clear that the new stereo format was elusive. The RFZ buildings were demolished in '06, most documentation and hardware went to landfills when the RFZ was deestablished in October '90.

As for making a stand alone unit, I generally think this is a terrible idea. It is rare that adding extra things in the signal path produces improvements in sound quality. Crossfeed should be designed into the actual headphone amplifier circuitry, not as an either external or internal "bolt on" section.

What needs to be done, in my view, is to re-evaluate the current crossfeed systems and to replace them with a new system, which should eliminate the undesirable frequency response changes and should produce an improved spacial rendering over the current "wide mono", instead of continuously rehashing circuits that are simply "wrong".

The professional DAW plugin "Waves NX" offers a fairly good result if correctly adjusted and it includes optional head tracking. I quite like it actually, mind you it's DSP and needs a fair bit of CPU power.

Sadly the default settings leave a lot to be desired, so much fiddelling is needed, we are almost back at the RFZ setup where everyone dialed up his version. A professional sound engineer may handle this with a wave of his hand, an average user? Less so.

Thus selling a widely adjustable system without a really good preset to "normal people" is unlikely to give the desired results.

And all that said, I note that too often people listen with their eyes and not their ears and they do not hear what is presented to their ears, but what their prejudices expect. This makes discussing these systems problematic.

A good example would be a company that included an "enhanced spacial presentation" crossfeed (which I designed). Sadly the feature got stuck with a name that most people think of as some gimmicky DSP or EQ.

And so instead of hearing an "out of head" presentation with an appx. 60 degree coverage angle on minimalist miked stereo recordings (which should have been the result), most pre-biased listeners (and I am sorry to say reviewers) heard whatever they expected, not what was presented...

And the funniest thing is, if you actually demonstrate the feature to unbiased listeners, that is not head-fi people who think they know about the tech and have definite opinions, but instead totally uncritical listeners who normally listen to earpods connected to their iPhone streaming apple music, the reaction is the same, always. Namely "Wow, this is like I'm in club/Concert hall/at a concert etc."

So the system actually works fine for people who just use their ears to listen and are not biased towards hearing something specific.

Ok, enough of my ramblings of past glories and ideas.

Good luck with your search for a standalone crossfeed.

I know Garage 1217 make the "Project Kameleon" standalone headphone EQ, which has at least in principle a crossfeed option, as Solderdude designed such an option. You might want to ask.

Given that the Garage 1217 Kameleon plus a module sells for 270 USD it is not even very expensive.

http://garage1217.com/new_website_017.htm

Of course, a dedicated headphone amplifier with enhanced spacial presentation crossfeed can be made to sell for much less (last time I looked one unit had a 150 USD retail price) but hey, given nobody likes that kind of crossfeed and given its not a stand alone unit, it would not be relevant to this thread.

Thor
 
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Feb 14, 2021 at 11:16 AM Post #26 of 51
Thorsten, I don't understand ...
Edric Li noted:
@alphaman FYI iFi 3D effect is NOT crossfeed. It does NOT mix left and right channel. Instead, it boosts lower treble and subbass for a wow factor. A very gimmicky EQ, basically. I owned the original micro iDSD, not sure if the technology had improved in the later iteration.
So, "... iFi 3D effect is NOT crossfeed. It does NOT mix left and right channel. ".
Yes or no?
 
Feb 14, 2021 at 1:21 PM Post #27 of 51
A good example would be a company that included an "enhanced spacial presentation" crossfeed (which I designed). Sadly the feature got stuck with a name that most people think of as some gimmicky DSP or EQ.

Depends on how you define "crossfeed". If by crossfeed we mean some kind of circuit that modifies the sound at the amp stage, then sure the iFi iDSD 3D is a "crossfeed". If by crossfeed we mean specifially a circuit that mixes the lower frequency between the left and right channels, then iFi iDSD 3D is not a "crossfeed" because that's is not what it does. iFi iDSD 3D does not sound like everybody else's crossfeed solution, analog or digital. I completely agree with you that iFi iDSD 3D "enhances spacial presentation"; it sounded cool and I liked it enough that I bought one. But that does not make it a "crossfeed".

To my ears iFi iDSD 3D changes the frequency response to a much larger degree than everybody else's crossfeed solution, hence I call it an EQ. In fact, the change in frequency response is much more drastic than if I were to use an EQ myself. On the claim that whether iFi iDSD 3D changes frequency response, one of us must either have bad hearing or is lying. Could be me.
 
Feb 14, 2021 at 1:43 PM Post #28 of 51
But that does not make it a "crossfeed".
To iFi's "credit", I don't think they ever described their 3D feature as crossfeed. But I'm a purist ... I want the real deal, in the analog domain, active or passive. and may be adjustable (stepped attenuator -- like my mod Linkwitz; or a 3-way switch, like Meier).
 
Feb 14, 2021 at 1:48 PM Post #29 of 51
Decoding to headphones would match a dummy head recording, while giving good stereo imaging results played without decoding.

There was an intention for a similar encoding matrix on the recording side, which would encode any common format, including dummy head stereo into the new stereo format. Grand idea really.

As for making a stand alone unit, I generally think this is a terrible idea. It is rare that adding extra things in the signal path produces improvements in sound quality. Crossfeed should be designed into the actual headphone amplifier circuitry, not as an either external or internal "bolt on" section.

You did make some great point. There really isn't a demand for crossfeed in the sense that, on one hand we have an entire generation of consumer and audiophiles raised on headphone listening, and on the other hand we have an entire generation raised on speaker listening. Even to the latter group, they have come to expect headphones to sound like headphone, that the spacial separation is but a feature of headphone listening.

Which component in the audio chain is responsible for solving this problem IMO is a rather philosophical question. My order of where is should happen would be:
1. Every music can have a headphone version, a stereo version and a mono version. Just like some music we have surround versions. This should be done by the mixing engineer. However this will never be possible given the production cost.
2. The headphone amp, for the same reason as you described. The best I've heard is SPL's solution.
3. The headphone cable. Lear Audio from HK claims to make it, though I've never tried. https://www.lear-eshop.com/products/lear-natrosound™-ns-u1-in-ear-monitor-pre-order-page. Those "angled drivers" solutions (beyer, ultrasone) don't quite do it for me.

To iFi's "credit", I don't think they ever described their 3D feature as crossfeed.

Absolutely. I don't recall anyone describes or advertises it as crossfeed, except in this thread. It sounds great at times, that's all that matters.
 
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Feb 15, 2021 at 4:04 AM Post #30 of 51
Hi,

Depends on how you define "crossfeed".

How about we define "crossfeed" as a system that "cross-couples" specific frequencies with specific amounts of "cross-coupling" between L/R channel's of a stereo playback (or recording) system.

How about further we define "headphone/iem crossfeed" as a crossfeed that applies some form generalised HRTF (Head Related Transfer Function) to the cross-coupled signal and which converts level differences into time delay differences based on some form of ITD (Interaural Time Difference), to 1) counteract the "in head localisation" of recordings made for stereophonic speaker playback and 2) offer a spatial presentation of such recordings fundamentally similar to listening to a speaker system.

And how about further we "speaker crossfeed" as a crossfeed that applies some form generalised HRTF (Head Related Transfer Function) to the cross-coupled signal and which converts time differences into amplitude differences based on some form of ITD (Interaural Time Difference), to 1) counteract the spatial distortion of recordings made for stereophonic speaker playback that leads to a narrowing stereo image with lower frequencies* and 2) improve the spatial presentation of such recordings replayed on a stereophonic speaker system, to offer a more realistic spatial presentation of sound image.

* this was document by Alan Dower Blumlein noted Radar pioneer and the father of "stereo audio" and addressed by the EMI ‘Stereosonic Shuffler’ incorporated into several of their in-house REDD mixing consoles, and it was routinely employed on EMI’s classical recordings in the ’50s and ’60s

Can we agree on the above definitions?

I completely agree with you that xxxx "enhances spacial presentation"; it sounded cool and I liked it enough that I bought one.

Did it produce a substantially "out of head" experience of the sound image, ignoring other spatial enhancements?

To my ears xxxxxx changes the frequency response to a much larger degree than everybody else's crossfeed solution, hence I call it an EQ. .... On the claim that whether xxxxxxx changes frequency response, one of us must either have bad hearing or is lying. Could be me.

Well, objective measurements show "it does not change the frequency response" (Amir measured it over at audiosciencereview.com).

Perhaps there is a third possibility, past "must either have bad hearing or is lying"? I am not sure if you are familiar with the work of Jens Blauert?

He found that specific equalisation of a stereo sound signal resulted in changes to the spatial perception of the resulting audio, there is a book on the subject:

Spatial Hearing - The Psychophysics of Human Sound Localization Jens Blauert
MIT Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1983

Now it is a stretch of Mr Blauert's work (and without ready evidence on my part) but not quite unreasonable to suggest a reverse effect, namely that changed spacial rendering without equalisation of the signal may lead to a perception of a changed tonal balanced. It is certainly not unreasonable to entertain such a notion.

If so, a sound image moved forward/up (or just creating a more distant sound) could be perceived as also creating an emphasis in the 200-500Hz (lower mids), 2-5kHz (lower treble) and 10-12kHz (treble) bands, which seems to be broadly be confirmed by impressions some have been publicising.

It is an interesting subject, perhaps a combination with a Blauert derived "anti EQ" lowering these bands would overcome this perception, at the cost of increased tonal colouration in an objective sense, but perhaps subjectively more correct? There still seems a lot of room of additional research.

I'm a purist ... I want the real deal, in the analog domain, active or passive. and may be adjustable (stepped attenuator -- like my mod Linkwitz; or a 3-way switch, like Meier).

Adjusting the "crossfeed" strength is not really conductive to sound field control. To create an out of head image reliably, we need have the correct "intensity difference to time difference" conversion. This is only possible with the correct generalised HRTF/ITD application in full. Partial crossfeed does not perform this. If adjustability is required, it would have to take a different form.

You did make some great point. There really isn't a demand for crossfeed in the sense that, on one hand we have an entire generation of consumer and audiophiles raised on headphone listening, and on the other hand we have an entire generation raised on speaker listening. Even to the latter group, they have come to expect headphones to sound like headphone, that the spacial separation is but a feature of headphone listening.

Correct. Thus I view the commercial possibilities of selling a standalone crossfeed as dire in the extreme.

Which component in the audio chain is responsible for solving this problem IMO is a rather philosophical question.

My order of where is should happen would be:
1. Every music can have a headphone version, a stereo version and a mono version. Just like some music we have surround versions. This should be done by the mixing engineer. However this will never be possible given the production cost.

I would agree with two fully separate mixes/recordings and masters should be made, one strictly for headphone listening and one strictly for speaker listening and offered and automagically selected by the playback software from the streaming provider.

So in case of a "minimalist" acoustic recording of say a classical orchestra or jazz combo one would record both a dummy head stereo version and a speaker version. I would record the speaker version using a modified decca tree with an ORTF or similar "point stereo" microphone array in the front position, something I developed in the 80's.

If making a panpot stereo version modern DAW's should be expanded for a more complex panning with the target selected as "speaker" or "headphone" and monitoring naturally would be done on the target setup.

3. The headphone cable. Lear Audio from HK claims to make it, though I've never tried. https://www.lear-eshop.com/products/lear-natrosound™-ns-u1-in-ear-monitor-pre-order-page.

Doing this correctly is more challenging than inside an amplifier - it would need to be carefully matched to driver impedance etc., elements easily controlled inside active electronics.

Thor
 

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