[perhapss]

IMO comparing Benson to Metheny is ludicrous. PM is an artist in the truest sense of the word whereas GB is the definition of the term sell-out. I was a big fan of guitar-playing George back in the day, than he struck gold with 'This Masquerade' (a very beautiful tune btw) and never looked back. Sad because although he had a good voice, he was a great gtr player. And has become completely irrelevant. His career's often compared to Nat King Cole who was an extraordinary pianist that released a bunch of instrumental-only trio records prior to hitting the big time as a vocalist. I remember reading an interview with Benson where he was asked about doing a guitar Jazz record and he said something to the effect of "when a gtr record can make me as much money as a vocal pop record, I'll do it!". That was the epitome of the concept of sell-out for me! Anyhow, he's a has-been, voice ain't what it used to be, his gtr chops certainly have faded, don't use 'em you lose 'em! George was one of the 1st artists I admired when I started appreciating Jazz back in the 70's and I'm glad he was able to make some $ but.....

Wanna hear a great guitar record? Kurt Rosenwinkel - Star Of Jupiter - Absolutely kills!!

 
Kurt Rosenwinkel is indeed a tremendous player.

 

[perhapss]

Recently just heard a new William Parker box set and it was quite recommendable.
 
Also, despite being maybe not the swingingest sort of thing, I've been enjoying the last few albums of the Evan Parker Electroacoustic ensemble.
 
Of course these guys aren't related by blood they both have been pushing boundaries in improvisation for some time.
 
And they're doing it now in the 21st century...

 

[Sorrodje]

Subbed !
 
How did I ever miss this thread ? 

 

 

[ralphp@optonline]

  I'd greatly appreciate hearing from anyone with experience/knowledge on the European jazz/improv scene.
Especially not so well-known names.

So what do you want to know?
 
It is difficult to lump of all of Europe together since there are several European countries which have very vibrant jazz scenes.
 
The Netherlands, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Norway, Poland and England all have well established jazz scenes with many great musicians. Here's a very brief rundown.
 
The Netherlands - Amsterdam is the place and The Bimhaus is the place within Amsterdam. And the Bimhaus is the "home" of one of the all time great European jazz ensembles - The ICP Orchestra. The ICP Orchestra was started back the 1970s by pianist Misha Mengelberg, drummer Han Bennink and several other musicians. While ICP Orchestra recordings are few and far between, Mengelberg, Bennink and others have lots of recordings to chose from. Another excellent Dutch group is the New Cool Collective along with alto sax player Benjamin Herman.
 
Germany - lots of great jazz. Try Alexander von Schlippenbach and Peter Brotzmann - two of the elder statesmen of German free jazz. The Schlippenbach led Berlin Contemporary Jazz Orchestra and Klaus Konig's various large ensembles are good places to start. And coming out of Austria there is the long running and really good Vienna Art Orchestra.
 
France - like Germany there is lots of good jazz to be found. Start with anything by pianist Baptiste Trotignon and then move on to reed player Louis Sclavis. You will thank me.
 
Italy - You should already know some Italian jazz from the great Enrico Rava. Try something by pianist Enrico Pieranunzi and then something by drummer Aldo Romano (who is part of a great trio along with Louis Sclavis and French bassist Henri Texier).
 
Spain - the most well known Spanish jazz musician is probably the great blind pianist Tete Montoliu however Spain is the home of the relatively new jazz record label Clean Feed which has been releasing a ton of very fine recordings by many young and talented Spanish musicians. Give some their recordings a listen.
 
Belgium - try something by the Flat Earth Society, a large jazz band doing some very interesting work.
 
Let me know how you make out and I'll post some more music worth checking out.

 

[jacal01]

OWL Trio.
 
EDIT:  I haven't yet reviewed this tread, but anybody for Keith Jarrett?

 

[Spyro]

Pat Metheny and smooth jazz in the same sentence is a disgrace.  Smooth?  Give me a song?  He's a true original and its (anything but smooth or fusion) jazz.  Not sure what else one could say.  Again, take the blinders off the 50's swing and bop mentality.
 
"Guitar as key instrument.....no saxaphone....can't possible be jazz"  Is this what people's mindsets are?   Scary....
 
With all due respect (and I really mean this), anyone that would label Metheny a sellout is a complete idiot.  Sell out of what???  To this day HE STILL surges forward, pushing the envelope, making whatever jazz music he wants with lots of experimentation.  He is the first artist in the world that comes to mind for me as someone that makes the music he wants to and doesn't worry about  ratings and sales.  If a label asks him to make more accessible music, he will just move on because there are other labels waiting to sign him in a heartbeat. 
 
I am not a fan of smooth jazz but those players are great.  Norman Brown is an amazing guitarist...but I don't like most of his stuff.  Too slick, too smooth.  Ken Navarro is probably my favorite "smooth jazz" guitarist.
 
Yes, the Rosenwinkle "Jupitor" release is great.  Mike Moreno is another great jazz guitarist.  Then a guy like Mike Stern who also played with Miles.....he's more fusion than the others mentioned.  Great players.

 

[Stuff Jones]

Pat Metheny does too much synth/new agey stuff for me. And its not ground breaking stuff like Miles Electric period, its just annoying/poor use of electronics blurring good musicianship. And he's an excellent guitarist which makes it a pity. That said, I like this from his collaboration with Zorn though on whole its not a great CD IMO.
 
 

 

[perhapss]

 
So what do you want to know?
 
It is difficult to lump of all of Europe together since there are several European countries which have very vibrant jazz scenes.
 
The Netherlands, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Norway, Poland and England all have well established jazz scenes with many great musicians. Here's a very brief rundown.
 
The Netherlands - Amsterdam is the place and The Bimhaus is the place within Amsterdam. And the Bimhaus is the "home" of one of the all time great European jazz ensembles - The ICP Orchestra. The ICP Orchestra was started back the 1970s by pianist Misha Mengelberg, drummer Han Bennink and several other musicians. While ICP Orchestra recordings are few and far between, Mengelberg, Bennink and others have lots of recordings to chose from. Another excellent Dutch group is the New Cool Collective along with alto sax player Benjamin Herman.
 
Germany - lots of great jazz. Try Alexander von Schlippenbach and Peter Brotzmann - two of the elder statesmen of German free jazz. The Schlippenbach led Berlin Contemporary Jazz Orchestra and Klaus Konig's various large ensembles are good places to start. And coming out of Austria there is the long running and really good Vienna Art Orchestra.
 
France - like Germany there is lots of good jazz to be found. Start with anything by pianist Baptiste Trotignon and then move on to reed player Louis Sclavis. You will thank me.
 
Italy - You should already know some Italian jazz from the great Enrico Rava. Try something by pianist Enrico Pieranunzi and then something by drummer Aldo Romano (who is part of a great trio along with Louis Sclavis and French bassist Henri Texier).
 
Spain - the most well known Spanish jazz musician is probably the great blind pianist Tete Montoliu however Spain is the home of the relatively new jazz record label Clean Feed which has been releasing a ton of very fine recordings by many young and talented Spanish musicians. Give some their recordings a listen.
 
Belgium - try something by the Flat Earth Society, a large jazz band doing some very interesting work.
 
Let me know how you make out and I'll post some more music worth checking out.

 
AWESOME post.
Great thanks!
 
Many new names for me.
 
I will check it out and get back to you....

 

[Sarah]

  Pat Metheny does too much synth/new agey stuff for me. And its not ground breaking stuff like Miles Electric period, its just annoying/poor use of electronics blurring good musicianship. And he's an excellent guitarist which makes it a pity. That said, I like this from his collaboration with Zorn though on whole its not a great CD IMO.

 
I was pretty disappointed with that Zorn collaboration (I'm coming at it from Zorn fandom, not Metheny fandom). The Book of Angels is some of my favorite music by anyone anywhere, and this was one of the weakest volumes for me. Out of 20 volumes it's the only one where I didn't bother putting all the tracks on my mp3 player because I didn't see myself ever wanting to hear them again...
 
Luckily it sounds like he has some fantastic bands signed up for the next book - I absolutely can't wait to hear what Zion80 is going to do with his compositions. One of my absolute absolute favorite new jazz bands.
 

  Belgium - try something by the Flat Earth Society, a large jazz band doing some very interesting work.

 
My friend Stefan mentioned them to me, they are supposed to be doing some shows in the U.S. this summer although I'm not sure which cities they'll be in...

 

[perhapss]

  Pat Metheny and smooth jazz in the same sentence is a disgrace.  Smooth?  Give me a song?  He's a true original and its (anything but smooth or fusion) jazz.  Not sure what else one could say.  Again, take the blinders off the 50's swing and bop mentality.
 
"Guitar as key instrument.....no saxaphone....can't possible be jazz"  Is this what people's mindsets are?   Scary....
 
With all due respect (and I really mean this), anyone that would label Metheny a sellout is a complete idiot.  Sell out of what???  To this day HE STILL surges forward, pushing the envelope, making whatever jazz music he wants with lots of experimentation.  He is the first artist in the world that comes to mind for me as someone that makes the music he wants to and doesn't worry about  ratings and sales.  If a label asks him to make more accessible music, he will just move on because there are other labels waiting to sign him in a heartbeat. 
 
I am not a fan of smooth jazz but those players are great.  Norman Brown is an amazing guitarist...but I don't like most of his stuff.  Too slick, too smooth.  Ken Navarro is probably my favorite "smooth jazz" guitarist.
 
Yes, the Rosenwinkle "Jupitor" release is great.  Mike Moreno is another great jazz guitarist.  Then a guy like Mike Stern who also played with Miles.....he's more fusion than the others mentioned.  Great players.

 
Ever hear the bootlegs of Mike Stern from the 55 in the late 80's?
Mind blowing.

 

[perhapss]

 
So what do you want to know?
 
It is difficult to lump of all of Europe together since there are several European countries which have very vibrant jazz scenes.
 
The Netherlands, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Norway, Poland and England all have well established jazz scenes with many great musicians. Here's a very brief rundown.
 
The Netherlands - Amsterdam is the place and The Bimhaus is the place within Amsterdam. And the Bimhaus is the "home" of one of the all time great European jazz ensembles - The ICP Orchestra. The ICP Orchestra was started back the 1970s by pianist Misha Mengelberg, drummer Han Bennink and several other musicians. While ICP Orchestra recordings are few and far between, Mengelberg, Bennink and others have lots of recordings to chose from. Another excellent Dutch group is the New Cool Collective along with alto sax player Benjamin Herman.
 
Germany - lots of great jazz. Try Alexander von Schlippenbach and Peter Brotzmann - two of the elder statesmen of German free jazz. The Schlippenbach led Berlin Contemporary Jazz Orchestra and Klaus Konig's various large ensembles are good places to start. And coming out of Austria there is the long running and really good Vienna Art Orchestra.
 
France - like Germany there is lots of good jazz to be found. Start with anything by pianist Baptiste Trotignon and then move on to reed player Louis Sclavis. You will thank me.
 
Italy - You should already know some Italian jazz from the great Enrico Rava. Try something by pianist Enrico Pieranunzi and then something by drummer Aldo Romano (who is part of a great trio along with Louis Sclavis and French bassist Henri Texier).
 
Spain - the most well known Spanish jazz musician is probably the great blind pianist Tete Montoliu however Spain is the home of the relatively new jazz record label Clean Feed which has been releasing a ton of very fine recordings by many young and talented Spanish musicians. Give some their recordings a listen.
 
Belgium - try something by the Flat Earth Society, a large jazz band doing some very interesting work.
 
Let me know how you make out and I'll post some more music worth checking out.

 
So to be clear:
I'm familiar all the Dutch stuff and Brotzmann.
All amazing obviously.
 
Enrico Rava I know a bit but haven't followed his career.
 
The spanish stuff is all new to me.
 
Also have heard OF the Flat Earth society but not listened.
I'll get to it....

 

[ralphp@optonline]

   
So to be clear:
I'm familiar all the Dutch stuff and Brotzmann.
All amazing obviously.
 
Enrico Rava I know a bit but haven't followed his career.
 
The spanish stuff is all new to me.
 
Also have heard OF the Flat Earth society but not listened.
I'll get to it....

I'm happy to hear that you are familiar with at least some of the musicians I listed. Just be aware that I only gave you the very tip of the iceberg, there are plenty more great European jazz musicians out there.
 

  Pat Metheny and smooth jazz in the same sentence is a disgrace.  Smooth?  Give me a song?  He's a true original and its (anything but smooth or fusion) jazz.  Not sure what else one could say.  Again, take the blinders off the 50's swing and bop mentality.
 
"Guitar as key instrument.....no saxaphone....can't possible be jazz"  Is this what people's mindsets are?   Scary....
 
With all due respect (and I really mean this), anyone that would label Metheny a sellout is a complete idiot.  Sell out of what???  To this day HE STILL surges forward, pushing the envelope, making whatever jazz music he wants with lots of experimentation.  He is the first artist in the world that comes to mind for me as someone that makes the music he wants to and doesn't worry about  ratings and sales.  If a label asks him to make more accessible music, he will just move on because there are other labels waiting to sign him in a heartbeat. 
 
I am not a fan of smooth jazz but those players are great.  Norman Brown is an amazing guitarist...but I don't like most of his stuff.  Too slick, too smooth.  Ken Navarro is probably my favorite "smooth jazz" guitarist.
 
Yes, the Rosenwinkle "Jupitor" release is great.  Mike Moreno is another great jazz guitarist.  Then a guy like Mike Stern who also played with Miles.....he's more fusion than the others mentioned.  Great players.

+1 (with respect to Pat Metheny. And speaking of Pat Metheny I'm a little confused since all this talk about Metheny being a sell out must be referring to some other Pat Metheny not the Pat Metheny who recorded or played on all these great JAZZ albums:
 














 
Just sayin'

 

[WNBC]

I don't think anybody in this group called him a "sell out".  There was just a mention that some people do call him that.  As someone not terribly familiar with his work there can be a tendency to lump him in with smooth jazz, which definitely has been corrected.  I have Trio99-->00 and Like Minds in the library but never got around to listening.  I definitely should.  
 
Knowing what Pat Metheny thinks of smooth jazz or maybe it is specific to Kenny G, I'll never associate him with smooth jazz...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaDvpctg0d8

 

[ralphp@optonline]

  I don't think anybody in this group called him a "sell out".  There was just a mention that some people do call him that.  As someone not terribly familiar with his work there can be a tendency to lump him in with smooth jazz, which definitely has been corrected.  I have Trio99-->00 and Like Minds in the library but never got around to listening.  I definitely should.  
 
Knowing what Pat Metheny thinks of smooth jazz or maybe it is specific to Kenny G, I'll never associate him with smooth jazz...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaDvpctg0d8

Ah yes the infamous Pat Metheny trashing Kenny G uproar. Here's one of my favorite takes on that whole affair:
 

 

[WNBC]

^Wow, now that's entertainment.  Kenny makes Britney sound like scat.  Classic.