pbirkett
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2002
- Posts
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You may or may not have been following my last thread, Does the Sennheiser HD650 sound slow?.
I have finally plumped for a replacement, and they are a headphone that was at the back of my mind now for a little while, possibly as an alternative to the HD650, but perhaps, on further reflection, I think these are possibly good enough to actually replace the HD650 in my system.
I've owned the HD650 no less than THREE times now, and have tried them on a variety of sources and amps. Many would say that in the past, my sources and/or amps have been lacking. That being said, I would personally argue that my source is definietly up for the job of waking a sound system up, and although there has been a debate in the above thread about the quality of my amps, there are enough reviews of it on headfi to suggest its probably not a bad little amp.
That said, whatever the situation, the HD650 (a $500 headphone) and ANT Amber (a $400 amp) was getting its arse handed to it on a plate by my speakers which actually cost me approx $500 both together (although granted that was not their original value!!).
I was starting to get a little tired of their slow bass, muffled sound and the fact you had to ramp the volume right up to enjoy it. Moreover, its been the same EVERY single time I've used the HD650 although to be fair, this time it has been tolerable enough to put up with it for the last nearly two years (cant say I've not given it a fair chance).
I've heard people say that I need to spend a silly sum of money to make it sound like it should. I say to that, get real, its a relatively inexpensive pair of headphones. Its like buying a pair of Wharfedale Diamonds, and then trying to tell their disappointed owner that in fact their $400 Cambridge Audio amp isnt good enough and thats why they sound crap. In actual fact, they need a nice hefty $1500 Naim amp for their budget speakers!!
Now before you have a go at me for that analogy, I realise that headphones are alleged to be more revealing than speakers, but on the basis of what the HD650 were serving up day to day, I had cause to dispute this, but everyone will have their own theories on this.
Here is mine: The HD650 are, and always will be polite and laid back headphones, with a tendency to smooth over rough edges. This can lead subpar recordings and/or inadequate systems to sound "veiled", or as most people would describe it, slightly "muffled". Added to that its dark tonality, and I can certainly see why people would say they need an expensive system to shine. However, what is subjective is whether that makes the Sennheiser a "needy, demanding, but capable phone", or whether it makes it "overrated and flawed". Personally, I am not sure what to think.
One thing I am sure of is that this headphone will get no more chances here. Three is quite enough, and there is mental barrier preventing me from spending astonishing amounts of cash trying to fix problems that are totally absent from a speaker rig that can be assembled for the price of the headphones on their own!
I have been researching on here a possible replacement for it. The more I researched, the more it came down to one brand, which I have owned once before, but overall, compared with the Beyers, Sennheisers, Sony's and AKGs of this world, have not really been given all that much of a chance in comparison.
Why is that? Well personally, I have made my views clear in the past about what i think about Grado's pricing policy, and that has been a big obstacle for me. I personally think that Grado might sell significantly more headphones abroard if they reviewed this policy, and gave a realistic price to some of their products. I really dont understand why an RS-1 doesnt cost £450, but instead costs £700.
Having said all of that, the Grado is the one headphone that seems to offer the kind of sound I am looking for, that is, highly musical, crystal clear, having an edge when it needs to, and with fast, punchy bass, the kind of headphone that offers a foot-tapping sound.
So why the SR-80? Well for one thing, none of the hifi shops around here stock anything better. You'll be spoiled for choice for Senn's and Beyer's (maybe why i've had so many), but Grados? Not very popular according to the guy there. I wonder why? (hint, price).
In any case, I wanted a demo of a Grado, and I have read in many places that the SR-80 is the sweetspot combination of performance and price, so I was still willing to give it a try, despite me wanting to try a higher model.
One thing going to this shop allowed me to do was throw in a wildcard. A brand new "Basic" Stax system with energizer.
With my equipment in toe, and my demo disc in the player, I set about listening to the two contenders.
When I first owned a pair of SR-80 years ago, not only was I running it through a far less capable system than the one I now own, but it also appeared to have poorer build quality than the pair I used today (and now own). Not only that but my original SR-80 had different pads to this one. The pads my original pair owned were flat, and the driver touched your ears making it very uncomfortable. This one appears to have bigger more comfortable pads on and the drivers are not touching your ears.
My first impression were how light and relatively comfortable these felt, an impression that surprisingly did not fade. I dont find them much less comfortable than the Senns!
My test disc contained the usual mix of music I tend to listen to, everything from a bit of hard trance, to more mellow electronica like Massive Attack and Chicane, to rock music like Oasis and the Automatic, and even some old stuff like Goldie!
My overall impression was one of some surprise. I felt that the SR-80 sounded pretty much on a par with the HD650 in terms of outright quality, except maybe for one thing - it does not attempt to refine the sound at all. It just delivers what is on the source with warts and all. In rock music, guitars sound edgy like they should. In techno music it was bright, fast and punchy, and it really drove the music along. Even in the old stuff it remained clean and clear.
In fact, subjectively, they seemed even more detailed than the Senns. I'm not saying they ARE more detailed, but they certainly present more detail in a fashion that is easier to hear.
There ARE compromises though. First off, the bass is not as deep as the HD650, but for the vast majority of music I listen to this is not a problem. Secondly, the soundstage is obviously smaller, but this was not as bad as I imagined. The bottom line for me is, despite some headphones trying to mimic speakers, they ALL fail to my ears. As such, this isnt really an issue at all to me, and I dont find the Grados in any way claustrophobic. I am more than happy with the compromises it has for the advantages it gives.
On the plus side, compared with the HD650, the SR-80s are truly exciting, detailed, with a seemingly very clear sound, and very fast punchy bass, these headphones truly do the PRaT thing.
Another thing I noticed was that these were still nice to listen to even with the volume on a lower setting. This is where the Senns for me were spectacularly bad, because their already dull, dark sound just sounded utterly uninvolving at anything less than "loud".
Overall, unsurprisingly, they are COMPLETELY different headphones. Someone who really enjoys the Grado sound may well hate the Sennheiser sound, and vice versa. I now realise I am firmly in the former camp. What surprised me is that, to my ears, and on my system, the SR-80 was a genuine competitor to the HD650 in absolute quality terms IMO. The SR-80 has compromises, such as bass extension and refinement, but the HD650 is compromised in the areas of clarity and speed. I dont dispute it MAY be possible to change this, but I prefer this easier route to the kind of sound I want, rather than spending hundreds trying to rescue a sound which shouldnt need rescuing in the first place!
OK, a few words about the Stax system. I believe it was a Stax SRS-2020II, with the energizer.
As an "audiophile" product, I found it to be superior to my ANT Amber / Sennheiser HD650 combo. The bass was much faster / cleaner, the sound was overall more clear. It resolved SIGNIFICANTLY more details. It has a larger soundstage and was more convincing. The bass and body of the music was actually much better than I had thought it would be. On the downside, I thought the comfort was a step down from either of these cans, and it might have been my imagination, but I felt that it was actually warming my ears up, and the pads would get sweaty on even moderately warm days. The energizer seemed to be pushed to the max to deliver an SPL that was acceptable for some material with wide dynamic ranges. Could be a problem if you use them as movie phones. Despite seemingly having the fast bass that I demanded, and the detail that was desirable, it somehow shared a similar signature to the HD650, and as such, I just felt it was lacking the fun factor somehow. Not only that, but I felt that any subjective improvements were not somehow worth the extra money, especially taking into account the perceived lack of fun factor.
So there you have it, I am now a Grado owner once again, and despite the lack of a higher end model, I am not actually sure it matters too much now, because as far as I can gather, a higher model Grado would probably offer small, incremental improvements in actual sound quality, but it seems that the SR-80 is bang on the money for fun factor.
Its just a pity that it costs so much in the UK, but I was prepared to pay a little more in support to the shop that allowed me to demo these headphones in my own time, at my own pace. Also nice to have the warranty given some of the scare stories of Grado build quality, or lack of it. That said, even at the inflated UK price for these cans, I feel the SR-80 still represent good value for money.
IMO, the Beyer DT531 were still the better VFM headphone in Europe for price/performance ratio, as they were obtainable for just over half the price brand new, but I would probably argue that the SR-80 probably offers at least equal sound quality, maybe better, and its probably just as much fun too.
I have finally plumped for a replacement, and they are a headphone that was at the back of my mind now for a little while, possibly as an alternative to the HD650, but perhaps, on further reflection, I think these are possibly good enough to actually replace the HD650 in my system.
I've owned the HD650 no less than THREE times now, and have tried them on a variety of sources and amps. Many would say that in the past, my sources and/or amps have been lacking. That being said, I would personally argue that my source is definietly up for the job of waking a sound system up, and although there has been a debate in the above thread about the quality of my amps, there are enough reviews of it on headfi to suggest its probably not a bad little amp.
That said, whatever the situation, the HD650 (a $500 headphone) and ANT Amber (a $400 amp) was getting its arse handed to it on a plate by my speakers which actually cost me approx $500 both together (although granted that was not their original value!!).
I was starting to get a little tired of their slow bass, muffled sound and the fact you had to ramp the volume right up to enjoy it. Moreover, its been the same EVERY single time I've used the HD650 although to be fair, this time it has been tolerable enough to put up with it for the last nearly two years (cant say I've not given it a fair chance).
I've heard people say that I need to spend a silly sum of money to make it sound like it should. I say to that, get real, its a relatively inexpensive pair of headphones. Its like buying a pair of Wharfedale Diamonds, and then trying to tell their disappointed owner that in fact their $400 Cambridge Audio amp isnt good enough and thats why they sound crap. In actual fact, they need a nice hefty $1500 Naim amp for their budget speakers!!
Now before you have a go at me for that analogy, I realise that headphones are alleged to be more revealing than speakers, but on the basis of what the HD650 were serving up day to day, I had cause to dispute this, but everyone will have their own theories on this.
Here is mine: The HD650 are, and always will be polite and laid back headphones, with a tendency to smooth over rough edges. This can lead subpar recordings and/or inadequate systems to sound "veiled", or as most people would describe it, slightly "muffled". Added to that its dark tonality, and I can certainly see why people would say they need an expensive system to shine. However, what is subjective is whether that makes the Sennheiser a "needy, demanding, but capable phone", or whether it makes it "overrated and flawed". Personally, I am not sure what to think.
One thing I am sure of is that this headphone will get no more chances here. Three is quite enough, and there is mental barrier preventing me from spending astonishing amounts of cash trying to fix problems that are totally absent from a speaker rig that can be assembled for the price of the headphones on their own!
I have been researching on here a possible replacement for it. The more I researched, the more it came down to one brand, which I have owned once before, but overall, compared with the Beyers, Sennheisers, Sony's and AKGs of this world, have not really been given all that much of a chance in comparison.
Why is that? Well personally, I have made my views clear in the past about what i think about Grado's pricing policy, and that has been a big obstacle for me. I personally think that Grado might sell significantly more headphones abroard if they reviewed this policy, and gave a realistic price to some of their products. I really dont understand why an RS-1 doesnt cost £450, but instead costs £700.
Having said all of that, the Grado is the one headphone that seems to offer the kind of sound I am looking for, that is, highly musical, crystal clear, having an edge when it needs to, and with fast, punchy bass, the kind of headphone that offers a foot-tapping sound.
So why the SR-80? Well for one thing, none of the hifi shops around here stock anything better. You'll be spoiled for choice for Senn's and Beyer's (maybe why i've had so many), but Grados? Not very popular according to the guy there. I wonder why? (hint, price).
In any case, I wanted a demo of a Grado, and I have read in many places that the SR-80 is the sweetspot combination of performance and price, so I was still willing to give it a try, despite me wanting to try a higher model.
One thing going to this shop allowed me to do was throw in a wildcard. A brand new "Basic" Stax system with energizer.
With my equipment in toe, and my demo disc in the player, I set about listening to the two contenders.
When I first owned a pair of SR-80 years ago, not only was I running it through a far less capable system than the one I now own, but it also appeared to have poorer build quality than the pair I used today (and now own). Not only that but my original SR-80 had different pads to this one. The pads my original pair owned were flat, and the driver touched your ears making it very uncomfortable. This one appears to have bigger more comfortable pads on and the drivers are not touching your ears.
My first impression were how light and relatively comfortable these felt, an impression that surprisingly did not fade. I dont find them much less comfortable than the Senns!
My test disc contained the usual mix of music I tend to listen to, everything from a bit of hard trance, to more mellow electronica like Massive Attack and Chicane, to rock music like Oasis and the Automatic, and even some old stuff like Goldie!
My overall impression was one of some surprise. I felt that the SR-80 sounded pretty much on a par with the HD650 in terms of outright quality, except maybe for one thing - it does not attempt to refine the sound at all. It just delivers what is on the source with warts and all. In rock music, guitars sound edgy like they should. In techno music it was bright, fast and punchy, and it really drove the music along. Even in the old stuff it remained clean and clear.
In fact, subjectively, they seemed even more detailed than the Senns. I'm not saying they ARE more detailed, but they certainly present more detail in a fashion that is easier to hear.
There ARE compromises though. First off, the bass is not as deep as the HD650, but for the vast majority of music I listen to this is not a problem. Secondly, the soundstage is obviously smaller, but this was not as bad as I imagined. The bottom line for me is, despite some headphones trying to mimic speakers, they ALL fail to my ears. As such, this isnt really an issue at all to me, and I dont find the Grados in any way claustrophobic. I am more than happy with the compromises it has for the advantages it gives.
On the plus side, compared with the HD650, the SR-80s are truly exciting, detailed, with a seemingly very clear sound, and very fast punchy bass, these headphones truly do the PRaT thing.
Another thing I noticed was that these were still nice to listen to even with the volume on a lower setting. This is where the Senns for me were spectacularly bad, because their already dull, dark sound just sounded utterly uninvolving at anything less than "loud".
Overall, unsurprisingly, they are COMPLETELY different headphones. Someone who really enjoys the Grado sound may well hate the Sennheiser sound, and vice versa. I now realise I am firmly in the former camp. What surprised me is that, to my ears, and on my system, the SR-80 was a genuine competitor to the HD650 in absolute quality terms IMO. The SR-80 has compromises, such as bass extension and refinement, but the HD650 is compromised in the areas of clarity and speed. I dont dispute it MAY be possible to change this, but I prefer this easier route to the kind of sound I want, rather than spending hundreds trying to rescue a sound which shouldnt need rescuing in the first place!
OK, a few words about the Stax system. I believe it was a Stax SRS-2020II, with the energizer.
As an "audiophile" product, I found it to be superior to my ANT Amber / Sennheiser HD650 combo. The bass was much faster / cleaner, the sound was overall more clear. It resolved SIGNIFICANTLY more details. It has a larger soundstage and was more convincing. The bass and body of the music was actually much better than I had thought it would be. On the downside, I thought the comfort was a step down from either of these cans, and it might have been my imagination, but I felt that it was actually warming my ears up, and the pads would get sweaty on even moderately warm days. The energizer seemed to be pushed to the max to deliver an SPL that was acceptable for some material with wide dynamic ranges. Could be a problem if you use them as movie phones. Despite seemingly having the fast bass that I demanded, and the detail that was desirable, it somehow shared a similar signature to the HD650, and as such, I just felt it was lacking the fun factor somehow. Not only that, but I felt that any subjective improvements were not somehow worth the extra money, especially taking into account the perceived lack of fun factor.
So there you have it, I am now a Grado owner once again, and despite the lack of a higher end model, I am not actually sure it matters too much now, because as far as I can gather, a higher model Grado would probably offer small, incremental improvements in actual sound quality, but it seems that the SR-80 is bang on the money for fun factor.
Its just a pity that it costs so much in the UK, but I was prepared to pay a little more in support to the shop that allowed me to demo these headphones in my own time, at my own pace. Also nice to have the warranty given some of the scare stories of Grado build quality, or lack of it. That said, even at the inflated UK price for these cans, I feel the SR-80 still represent good value for money.
IMO, the Beyer DT531 were still the better VFM headphone in Europe for price/performance ratio, as they were obtainable for just over half the price brand new, but I would probably argue that the SR-80 probably offers at least equal sound quality, maybe better, and its probably just as much fun too.
