[ZarakiSan]

Quote:

Interesting pov indeed. I  consider myself that the drive noise interferes just in between songs (when it spins and loads the file onto the cache).
 
I do concur though with you hard disk, battery and current assessment. Unfortunately that idea of yours (and of mine) did not translate well into my ears when i listened back and forth to my 09 Classic and 2010 Touch: they sounded the same with AAC 320 Sheryl Crow files (Shure SE530 iems).
 
And i don't think the Touches mount exactly the same audio machinery than the iPhones. My iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4 HPO is a little better than the one of any iPod Touch i've come across. It kind of makes sense... if the iPod Touch features a slightly worse screen ,slightly cheaper buttons, slightly worse camera.. i guess something in the audio setup is slightly cheaper as well (Count the classic in here as well).
 
Once again this is just my 0.02

That's a pretty right sounding statement, I would agree. I don't think the output if affected all that much, either. It's mostly that the drive seeking 'noise' can be heard really well through earphones on hard disk players - the amp being affected might not be easy to hear. (I haven't had close enough sounding players to test.)
 
I read somewhere the audio hardware of the Touch 4G was the same as the 3GS - a definitive plus, because my 3GS is miles ahead of the Touch 2G I had before it. If that's not correct, though, consider me blushing. The rest of the Touch, like you said, being a little cheaper in build quality is something I can concur with - the Touch 4G is our house does have a nice, high-res screen, but the brightness is below the iPhone 4.
 
The Classic's biggest downside is, in my opinion however, the fact that Apple hasn't done anything with it for the last few years. There's tons of room for improvement (iOS without Touch per example) in that thing and Apple is, well, dumping it, which is a shame.

 

[Train]

 
Quote:

I didn't read through the entire thread, but I want to note:
 
Anything with a hard disk is non-audiophile. My Zune 80 makes a ton of noise due to the hard disk spinning up, drawing power from the battery, and the battery giving slightly less energy to the amplifier. In theory and in practice, this is audible, at least with my UE-11's. I has the same problem with the iPod 5.5g 80GB, and to a lesser extent with an Archos 605 Wifi.

 
Huh? The S:Flo2, regarded by many to be one of the best sounding DAPs, has an audible hiss anytime the screen is on. Does that mean anything with a screen is "non-audiophile?" Or for that matter, since every DAP I can think of has something other than the DAC and amp drawing battery power, is every DAP thus "non-audiophile?"
 
Not trying to be disrespectful, but some (i.e. a lot) of the things I read around Head-Fi take me by surprise.

 

[elfary]

Quote:

Quote:

Interesting pov indeed. I  consider myself that the drive noise interferes just in between songs (when it spins and loads the file onto the cache).
 
I do concur though with you hard disk, battery and current assessment. Unfortunately that idea of yours (and of mine) did not translate well into my ears when i listened back and forth to my 09 Classic and 2010 Touch: they sounded the same with AAC 320 Sheryl Crow files (Shure SE530 iems).
 
And i don't think the Touches mount exactly the same audio machinery than the iPhones. My iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4 HPO is a little better than the one of any iPod Touch i've come across. It kind of makes sense... if the iPod Touch features a slightly worse screen ,slightly cheaper buttons, slightly worse camera.. i guess something in the audio setup is slightly cheaper as well (Count the classic in here as well).
 
Once again this is just my 0.02

That's a pretty right sounding statement, I would agree. I don't think the output if affected all that much, either. It's mostly that the drive seeking 'noise' can be heard really well through earphones on hard disk players - the amp being affected might not be easy to hear. (I haven't had close enough sounding players to test.)
 
I read somewhere the audio hardware of the Touch 4G was the same as the 3GS - a definitive plus, because my 3GS is miles ahead of the Touch 2G I had before it. If that's not correct, though, consider me blushing. The rest of the Touch, like you said, being a little cheaper in build quality is something I can concur with - the Touch 4G is our house does have a nice, high-res screen, but the brightness is below the iPhone 4.
 
The Classic's biggest downside is, in my opinion however, the fact that Apple hasn't done anything with it for the last few years. There's tons of room for improvement (iOS without Touch per example) in that thing and Apple is, well, dumping it, which is a shame.

I think Apple ditched I+D on the Classic because when solid state drives get cheaper we will be able to buy 128Gb Touches and by then very few people would spend a dime on the iPod Classic.
 
I guess the needing of more than 100 Gigs on a DAP requires the use of lossless codecs and huge collections (My ALAC library is now 367 Gigs) and i'm afraid the number of humans who meet both requirements is really minimal thus not profitable.
 
I would have loved a 320Gig Classic though or even an supermegaequalizable Cowon X7 320Gigs for that matter

 

[Eric_C]

ZarakiSan: wow; I never noticed any drive hum on my Classic. I guess the colouration and relatively low isolation on my IE8 masked that fact. But kudos for a great counter-point there!
Also, I am suddenly turned off by be prospect of ever getting customs.

 

[Achmedisdead]

  
I've actually gone the other way recently....I have 21.6GB of music on my rockboxed FuzeV2 (8+16GB) and it is all MP3....LAME V2, V0, and 320....and according to MP3Tag, that's enough to play non-stop for 9.5 days without repeating a track. After pondering that, when I bought my Touch 4G last weekend, I bought the 32GB rather than wait a week and get the 64GB. I no longer care about getting a 32GB microsdhc card for my rockboxed Sansas, either, unless it drops down under $40. I can see the appeal of big storage for those who must have lossless on their DAP's , but for me, 32GB is plenty. My wallet is happy I came to my senses!

 

[elfary]

Quote:

  
I've actually gone the other way recently....I have 21.6GB of music on my rockboxed FuzeV2 (8+16GB) and it is all MP3....LAME V2, V0, and 320....and according to MP3Tag, that's enough to play non-stop for 9.5 days without repeating a track. After pondering that, when I bought my Touch 4G last weekend, I bought the 32GB rather than wait a week and get the 64GB. I no longer care about getting a 32GB microsdhc card for my rockboxed Sansas, either, unless it drops down under $40. I can see the appeal of big storage for those who must have lossless on their DAP's , but for me, 32GB is plenty. My wallet is happy I came to my senses!

 Well actually i got there a few months back. On my daily 2 hour commute i just use the iPhone+SE530. My Classic and iBasso T3 stay at home.    But still there's something beautiful in the idea of having at the palm of your hand all your music.
 

 

[celcius]

I ditched my classic because it only played FLAC via rockbox (and that put a huge drain on the battery life).
Now thinking about the huge capacity and great line out, I kinda miss it...

 

[elfary]

Quote:

I ditched my classic because it only played FLAC via rockbox (and that put a huge drain on the battery life).
Now thinking about the huge capacity and great line out, I kinda miss it...

A great line out is a really big plus in my book. It allows you to have a lot of fun by trying different amps. Since the Classic allows for this and it has a great speaker aftermarket i find not as funny getting away from the Apple ecosystem to be limited just to a headphone out.

 

[LevA]

Quote:

I ditched my classic because it only played FLAC via rockbox (and that put a huge drain on the battery life).
Now thinking about the huge capacity and great line out, I kinda miss it...

from my own experience and from what I have read of other, the battery life issue with FLAC has been solved with the current build...

 

[cooperpwc]

The claim that a hard drive based DAP is ipso facto "not audiophile" is contender for silliest statement of this fledgling new year.
 
(Maybe I shouldn't be making these raw posts when I have just come back from a single malt tasting. I should await sobriety and sugar coat my sneers...)  

 

[Soundmangt4]

I recently bought my newest generation (8th?) iPod classic, and was very disappointed that the only way to get a solid state drive was to buy the Touch, which had smaller capacity and twice the price tag, and as I ONLY use it as a music player it'd extra functions were a waste. However, I had only wanted the solid state drive as I have had 2 old hard drives fail in iPods, and that really annoys me, and I had not thought about the extra noise that it may or may not make. TBH, the environment that I listen to my iPod in is such that I can guarantee I could not hear the minute difference anyway.
I think there is a line to be drawn with potential improvements with portable audio, unless you listen in quiet rooms without walking around etc etc, as the background noise from occlusion effect or general noise is too great to hear these tiny differences. Just my opinion anyway.
On hifi set ups, lots of serious hi-end kit have displays that turn off to help with noise floor etc, but again I have never gone that far. 
 
However, the funniest and most absurd thing I heard recently is a guy who commented in a FiiO E7 thread (and apologies if he/she is reading this) that when using the E7 as a DAC he had changed the USB cable to an expensive type with gold connectors and it improved the sound 10%. Made me laugh so hard. The fact that it is a digital transmission and it will either get there or not means the cable quality if absolutely irrelevant. Please also bear in mind that I work for a company called Midas (www.midasconsoles.com) who make high quality mixing consoles, and developed Supermac and Hypermac AES50 protocols, which can transmit up to 384 channels of 96Khz 24 bit audio simultaniously down a CAT5 cable up to 100 meters with only 6 micro-seconds of latency per network hop, and the quality or speed is not affected by using high quality or cheap CAT5, as long as the termination is good.
The fact that he/she was convinced it sounded better with the expensive USB cable is proof really that the mind is a powerful thing, and we hear things we want to hear at times. I'm not saying some things can make a minute difference - like good cabling, but only in the analogue world really. Too often are the ill-informed prayed upon for sales, like with HDMI cables. For example, if you've bought a HD TV recently, then the chances are you have had a sales guy tell you to buy a good (and suitably expensive) HDMI cable. Complete profiteering IMO.
 
Anyway, I strayed from the path again, but my point and opinion is that some tiny things can not be appreciated or heard in some environments, and sometimes we chase perfection for perfection's sake, without actually needing what we already have.

 

[rroseperry]

Quote:

I didn't read through the entire thread, but I want to note:
 
Anything with a hard disk is non-audiophile. My Zune 80 makes a ton of noise due to the hard disk spinning up, drawing power from the battery, and the battery giving slightly less energy to the amplifier. In theory and in practice, this is audible, at least with my UE-11's. I has the same problem with the iPod 5.5g 80GB, and to a lesser extent with an Archos 605 Wifi.
 
While this problem may not be audible with your rig (or ears), it means a hard disk makes for a non-audiophile product. Therefore, I can't claim the iPod Classic being the ultimate iPod. The iPod Touch 4g 64GB would be the ultimate then, at least for actual iPods, since it has the same audio-out chip as the iPhone 3GS (my personal favorite iOS product) and no 3G radio to give possible interference.
 
All in all for all DAPs, the Cowon D3 is looking very, very good. That's all I can say.

Sorry, but I've got to disagree here.  I've got the tank hard drive of hard drives, a Rockboxed iriver iH140 and I have no problem with disk sound with either my TF10s or GR8s (admittedly not customs). It's got great sound, without EQ and great capacity.

 

[ZarakiSan]

Quote:

 
Quote:

I didn't read through the entire thread, but I want to note:
 
Anything with a hard disk is non-audiophile. My Zune 80 makes a ton of noise due to the hard disk spinning up, drawing power from the battery, and the battery giving slightly less energy to the amplifier. In theory and in practice, this is audible, at least with my UE-11's. I has the same problem with the iPod 5.5g 80GB, and to a lesser extent with an Archos 605 Wifi.

 
Huh? The S:Flo2, regarded by many to be one of the best sounding DAPs, has an audible hiss anytime the screen is on. Does that mean anything with a screen is "non-audiophile?" Or for that matter, since every DAP I can think of has something other than the DAC and amp drawing battery power, is every DAP thus "non-audiophile?"
 
Not trying to be disrespectful, but some (i.e. a lot) of the things I read around Head-Fi take me by surprise.

It's not something that's theoretical here - I have had multiple hard disk players throw a lot of noise on the headphone output whenever the hard drive did any seeking. It's hard for the battery to cope with those short, high-power drains or so I reckon. While it's also possible the sound if being sent to my earphones by pure vibration, I highly doubt it - it sounds too direct and directly audible to me. It doesn't seem to apply to most other parts inside DAPs, I believe. Or maybe, it's exactly as you say and all those things add noise to the headphone output!
 
If you have really sensitive IEMs and a hard-disk based player, take a good listen for yourself. It shouldn't be hard to hear at all.
 
Edit: The screen being on is something you can control (it isn't audiophile with the screen on, imo), you can change the parameters yourself to get proper sound. The hard disk is hard to impossible to control.


Quote:

The claim that a hard drive based DAP is ipso facto "not audiophile" is contender for silliest statement of this fledgling new year.
 
(Maybe I shouldn't be making these raw posts when I have just come back from a single malt tasting. I should await sobriety and sugar coat my sneers...)  

It's a bit... harsh, I confess. However, I do feel that, on one level or another, it's the truth. The output will likely be affected by a change in draw from the battery, and therefore would not be purely what it's supposed to be. I have to ask, though - Why do you feel this is nonsense? (If you want to respond when you're sobered up, no problem! Hope you had fun, btw.)

 

[cooperpwc]

ZarakiSAn, certainly no offfence intended in the sobre morning.
 
There is no reason why a DAP with a hard drive cannot be designed to handle the electrical load. Also the hard drive data loads into a memory buffer so that jitter is not a distinguishing factor. The iMod is hard drive based and may be the audiophile DAP (but for the new 801-types) although its focus is line out. I agree with rroseperry that the iRiver H140 was another superb DAP with a hard drive. It never revealed hard drive noise with my old Triple-Fi's.
 
I think that you can't draw the line where you drew it. That's actually one of the less important factors IMHO - if an important factor at all. 

 

[estreeter]

My two cents worth:
 
- in any hobby, there are 'nth degree' perfectionists. If your cable has .00009% oxygen, they will want to better that, regardless of cost
 
- the same people who buy more expensive USB cables will be the same people who insist on SSD over hard drives - its an nth degree thing.
 
- no argument will sway them from what they hear through their kit - no DBT, no measurements - and you can bet that they have acute hearing, regardless of age. If there is hiss anywhere in the chain, you'll hear all about it.
 
End of the day, as already mentioned, the mind is a very powerful machine. If our 'world' is the sum of our perceptions, and we perceive a new addition to be an improvement to that world, then its an improvement. I dont own a single cable that cost more than $30 (and that died on me, leaving me with the cheaper options ..), and I dont own any sort of power conditioner, but I accept that there will always be people who are prepared to spend serious money on these additions.