[Gladstone]

One more quick question since I barely have any knowledge of electrostatics. How is the sound projected? Do they (like Ultrasones) use the ear shell before they push the music inside the ear (for a more accurate stereo image)? Or do they just function like normal dynamic headphones, i.e. the HD 650?

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes - with Woo GES std or maxed, Single Power ES-1, Stax SRM-T1 or SRD-7 Pro with Nuforce Icon speaker amp (or any punchy strong detailed speaker amp).

What kind of sound differences do you hear with HE60 bet. ES-1 and Woo? Mainly, is Woo as good in detail resolution?

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladstone /img/forum/go_quote.gif One more quick question since I barely have any knowledge of electrostatics. How is the sound projected? Do they (like Ultrasones) use the ear shell before they push the music inside the ear (for a more accurate stereo image)? Or do they just function like normal dynamic headphones, i.e. the HD 650?

All electrostatics aren't the same so you can't just throw them in one pile. They do share some characteristics but that's about as far as it goes. I will say that none of them are like the Ultrasones since you have to try real hard to make headphones that bad. The Stax Sigma lineup was an effort to create a more spacious soundstage and the HE90 as well as the Stax Lambda range to a lesser extent and they do quite well in that regard but most provide a small, yet very precise window into the sound.

As for the origianl question then the HE90 isn't as detailed as the Stax Omegas when it comes to micro detail and simply sucks (at this price level any way) at bass macro detail. It's bass is very dynamic "like" so it thumps along but when things get complicated it can't keep up and parts of the performance is simply skipped over. It's very recording dependent and in some genres you will never come across this but it's there none the less...

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon L /img/forum/go_quote.gif What kind of sound differences do you hear with HE60 bet. ES-1 and Woo? Mainly, is Woo as good in detail resolution?

The Woo was warmer and richer while retaining good detail and space. The ES-1 was fast and sharp and sounded more SS than tubey, and was very different from the GES at the July Colorado Head-fi meet.

My current Maxed GES is even more transparent than the GES prototype that I compared to the ES-1 at the Colo Head-fi meet.

 

[Gladstone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif All electrostatics aren't the same so you can't just throw them in one pile. They do share some characteristics but that's about as far as it goes. I will say that none of them are like the Ultrasones since you have to try real hard to make headphones that bad. The Stax Sigma lineup was an effort to create a more spacious soundstage and the HE90 as well as the Stax Lambda range to a lesser extent and they do quite well in that regard but most provide a small, yet very precise window into the sound. As for the origianl question then the HE90 isn't as detailed as the Stax Omegas when it comes to micro detail and simply sucks (at this price level any way) at bass macro detail. It's bass is very dynamic "like" so it thumps along but when things get complicated it can't keep up and parts of the performance is simply skipped over. It's very recording dependent and in some genres you will never come across this but it's there none the less...

I'm sorry you feel this way about Ultrasone headphones, I do not share the same opinion, Anyway I don't think you fully understood my question. I'm not talking about the soundstage, how big it is. I'm asking if they have somewhat accurate stereo imaging (i.e. can you point out with some accuracy where the instruments in the mix are placed - like on Ultrasones). Ofcourse I don't mean the same type of accuracy as high end monitors or speakers in a well treated room but I'm sure you get the idea. They call Stax phones Earspeakers after all. Nice to know that the Omega seems to have more detail than the HE90.

 

[spritzer]

I understood the question but I could have worded it better. You wanted to throw all ESP's into the same pot when they are in fact even more different then dynamics. Some are very accurate and will tell you where everything is, down to the last mm and then what the the performer had for breakfast, while others take a more "romantic stance" and are a bit more washed out so you don't get the pin point imaging but more a general area of each instrument. The detail is all there though. The SR-007 Mk1 adds another trump since it can also layer elements of the soundstage where one is further away then another.

One factor to consider here is the choice of amps since they are the limiting factor of any ESP system, no matter how expensive they are. I'm not saying that ESP amps are in any way inferior to their dynamic counterparts at a similar price level, quite the opposite in fact since they are almost all made by Stax and the vintage units are the best value around. The transducers are simply so reliant of the amp to feed them properly while working with high voltages that things get expensive fast. The sky's literally the limit and I'm not talking about upgrades such as BlackGates and V-Caps but real improvements with much stiffer PSU designs, larger CCS's, improved bias supplies and the like.

 

[Gladstone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif I understood the question but I could have worded it better. You wanted to throw all ESP's into the same pot when they are in fact even more different then dynamics. Some are very accurate and will tell you where everything is, down to the last mm and then what the the performer had for breakfast, while others take a more "romantic stance" and are a bit more washed out so you don't get the pin point imaging but more a general area of each instrument. The detail is all there though. The SR-007 Mk1 adds another trump since it can also layer elements of the soundstage where one is further away then another. One factor to consider here is the choice of amps since they are the limiting factor of any ESP system, no matter how expensive they are. I'm not saying that ESP amps are in any way inferior to their dynamic counterparts at a similar price level, quite the opposite in fact since they are almost all made by Stax and the vintage units are the best value around. The transducers are simply so reliant of the amp to feed them properly while working with high voltages that things get expensive fast. The sky's literally the limit and I'm not talking about upgrades such as BlackGates and V-Caps but real improvements with much stiffer PSU designs, larger CCS's, improved bias supplies and the like.

Understood. Wasn't my intention to throw all ESP's in the same pot. I'd like to note though that I don't find much difference between dynamic headphones. Sure the frequency response, drivers, housing etc. are different but they all suffer from the same mono-like projection (with Ultrasones being the exception). Understood about the amps aswell, a custom amp it would be then. Now, would you also happen to know exactly how ESP's (or the ones you own) send the sound into your ears?

Thanks and kind regards!

 

[spritzer]

I've owned almost every electrostatic headphone ever made so that would be a long list...

One important aspect should be made clear from the start and that's that ESP's don't force the sound on the listener. Much like speakers, the sound is presented to the listener and not showed down his/hers throat. It is as if the sound emanates out of thin air a few centimeters away from the ears.

This can be changed with the design of the headphone so we have our usual Grado-like designs which sit on the ear and they have a pretty limited soundstage. Then there are designs like the Stax SR-5 which place the driver also above the ear but since the pads are a bit bigger the sound can bounce around a bit and the soundstage is therefor larger. The rest of the phones rely on the ear as a whole since the driver is often larger then the ear so they can throw a larger soundstage due to the sound bouncing off the ear as a whole.

 

[mopps]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladstone /img/forum/go_quote.gif Understood. Wasn't my intention to throw all ESP's in the same pot. I'd like to note though that I don't find much difference between dynamic headphones. Sure the frequency response, drivers, housing etc. are different but they all suffer from the same mono-like projection (with Ultrasones being the exception). Understood about the amps aswell, a custom amp it would be then. Now, would you also happen to know exactly how ESP's (or the ones you own) send the sound into your ears? Thanks and kind regards!

Ah, maybe you mean Ultrasone's "S-Logic"? Indeed, this is a speciality. Their soundstage is very unique and at least with the Edition 9 the most lifelike one I heard so far, except maybe for the K-1000 IIRC. But seems to be very dependent on the listener's HRTF and ears. If these are not fully "compatible" then S-Logic isn't a benefit at all.

No, you can't find a single Stax model in the current lineup with a comparable presentation, they all are "of the old school".

 

[mikeymad]

hmmm... I was looking through and I wasn't seeing something that I consider to be the most detailed headphone that I have heard. Well not really consider it 'is' the most detailed headphone that I have heard. Does not mean it is the most musical. But out of the R10, L3000, Qualia, O2, HE90, HE60.... I have found that the STAX 4070's have a level of detail that was above all the rest.

Source/Amp combo will aways be a factor, but I have yet to hear higher resolution from another headphone combo....

Cheers,

 

[Gladstone]

Thanks Mikey, I was looking at that one myself aswell, the 4070's. Got to give those a try someday!

 

[mikeymad]

Cheers Gladstone.....


Notes from when I got a pair of 4070's.

Quote:

The more I listened last night the more I am really liking the sound of the 4070's. I still feel the O2's are a step above, and are more musical. But there is an inner detail that the 4070's have that is really intoxicating on high resolution (minimal) recordings. Maybe it is an effect of the isolation, but I seem to be able to hear further into the instruments themselves. The vibration of the string against the fret, the spit in the horn, the drumstick hitting the edge of the drum as well as the drum head (not just a single sound), "the decay of the note in the air". Kind of spooky stuff, and not something you normaly listen for when you hear an instrument live, but the 4070's do draw me in that way.

 

[Happy Camper]

mikey,

Was this listening through the Stax amp packaged with the 4070 or one of those in your sig.?

 

[mikeymad]

Sorry Happy Camper forgot to mention... All ES phones are being tested with the SinglePower ES-1...

Cheers,

 

[Happy Camper]

That's what I was afraid of. Off to get a bigger piggybank.