Is EQing IEMs a fool's errand?
Apr 13, 2024 at 7:15 PM Post #31 of 41
Now that I've recently added the Symphonium Meteor to my collection, I'm starting to think that my issues with EQing IEMs are actually specific to all-BA sets. While it's relatively hard to come by phase measurements for many IEMs (let alone, all-BA sets), those that I have found have impedance and phase graphs that look quite different from other sets, including hybrids/tribrids. This has me suspecting that multi-BA--or possibly just all-BA--sets are susceptible to phase smear when using (minimum-phase) EQ.

Admittedly, a sample size of two IEMs is hardly definitive. Without a measurement rig of my own or widespread impedance and phase (or even distortion) plots of many IEMs, I'll just have to rely on my ears. And my ears are telling me not to EQ either of my (all-BA) sets. I'll have to wait until I get another IEM with a different driver makeup to compare.

Curious if others have noticed a difference when EQing all-BA sets vs other driver combinations?
Meteor is designed for phase sync though. It’s like the main design point of the meteor. And it has flat impedance curve as well.

I don’t know why you are having much challenges with EQ given your expertise and previous experiences. I regularly apply EQ profiles from my W4 dongle on BA sets and they have been just fine. That smearing that I hear when using EQ from a micro DAP in the past is not there. It’s likely the implementation of EQ matters, and maybe IEM makes it easier to hear problem of the EQ?
 
Apr 13, 2024 at 7:41 PM Post #32 of 41
Meteor is designed for phase sync though. It’s like the main design point of the meteor. And it has flat impedance curve as well.

I don’t know why you are having much challenges with EQ given your expertise and previous experiences. I regularly apply EQ profiles from my W4 dongle on BA sets and they have been just fine. That smearing that I hear when using EQ from a micro DAP in the past is not there. It’s likely the implementation of EQ matters, and maybe IEM makes it easier to hear problem of the EQ?
Huh. Weird. I use a bunch of different PEQ sources, depending on the situation (Equalizer APO, Roon Muse, Roon ARC, Qudelix 5K, and Sound Source). Could really be that my ears just aren't used to listening to IEMs, so everything just generally sounds "off." Maybe the real answer here is that I just need to give myself time to listen to more IEMs and more different kinds of IEMs. Give my ears mileage to adapt?
 
Apr 17, 2024 at 8:19 AM Post #33 of 41
I'm a bit curious about what your specific problems are. What are you trying to solve and what filters are you applying to solve them? "Smearing" as you describe it, sounds like IMD and aliasing caused by adding amplitude without compensating by dropping input gain. Your issues are vague to this point, so let's get specific.
 
Apr 17, 2024 at 9:28 AM Post #34 of 41
I'm a bit curious about what your specific problems are. What are you trying to solve and what filters are you applying to solve them? "Smearing" as you describe it, sounds like IMD and aliasing caused by adding amplitude without compensating by dropping input gain. Your issues are vague to this point, so let's get specific.
Honestly, I wish I could. All I can say is that no matter what approach I take (using what I already know about EQ for over-ears), something always sounds a little "off." Vague, I know.

As I mention in my last comment, I think one of the issues I'm facing is that IEMs are still a new realm for me, so my ears aren't as attuned to what is or is not happening as they are with over-ears and speakers. I've listed a number of potential culprits in various posts above that are specific to IEMs, and it's likely that at least some of those are in play and contributing to the issues I'm having. One example is that my own tuning preferences are shockingly different with IEMs compared to over-ears. From everything I've read about current state of research into IEMs and tuning preferences, we're still in early days and many folks seem uncertain what exactly accounts for that difference (between tuning preferences with IEMs and over-ears). And so on.

Anyhow, for now I'm just giving myself time to get used to IEM listening. I've mostly put aside trying to EQ them (which seems weird to me since it's so central to my headphone listening) and am focusing more on things like fit and tips.I'll keep listening and experimenting with EQ, but for now I'm thinking I'll leave EQ alone for IEM listening.
 
Apr 17, 2024 at 11:54 AM Post #35 of 41
Right, of course you aren't going to get good results if you aren't identifying and targeting distinct problems, you need to know what your target is before engaging.

I'll try using my EQ tuning of the QDC V14 as an example to explain my strategy.
graph.png

I used 6 filters here to address certain problems.

For the bass region (300Hz and below), I'm using two low shelf filters to shape the bass according to my preference for sub-bass (lots of it as you can see). On a HP this bass region would be completely nonsensical because the amount of kinetic energy generated by the driver is much higher in general, so less measured bass is required to create "correct" perceived bass levels. IEMs generate much less energy, so listeners consistently go for higher levels of bass (as seen in the Harman IE target) in general to compensate for the lost sensation of bass going from HP to IEM. Whatever your preference for bass is on HPs, add on significant amounts of sub-bass. I reduced the amount of mid-bass here because that stock amount was masking the pinna gain region (1k to 4k) too much for my liking, so I nudged it down 1.5dB to accentuate the pinna gain region's prominence in the tuning. Generally, you will want the overall level of mid-bass to be roughly within a 3:5 ratio to the pinna gain peak to avoid masking while still having sufficient body.

Mids before 1k generally form the baseline for the tuning as it contains the fundamental frequencies of much of modern music, so generally a flat response from 300 to 1k is preferable depending on how early your pinna gain region kicks in.

My pinna gain region (1.1k to 3k) is a problem area on most IEMs, so this area needed 3 filters to shape to my preference. First is a slight nudge down at 1.6k because vox stems and guitar harmonics were coming on a bit thick in the mix, this usually denotes an unbalanced ratio between the lower and upper pinna gain region. This of course then points the finger at the elephant in the room that is the notable notch at 3k. This notch causes me to perceive an elevation drop on the center of the sound image, which I fixed with a narrow 3dB peak hitting just that notch. I arrived at that level by ear, paying attention to the center image until it was at eye level. The last filter I used here was at 4.4k to address some mic buzzing and digital quality that was coming through on tracks. This region (4k to 5k) generally needs to gently slope down from the gain peak to help control odd harmonics that are generated from the 1k to 1.7k area that cause a metallic tinge to permeate your mix, so you want to target that region whenever you hear that kind of noise.

The last filter I applied is at 8k to control some excessive sheen and borderline sibilance. This region is a common resonance point in measurement couplers so take the measured level with a grain of salt, but the resonance points of the human ear typically occupy the same area, so you might have to hunt around a bit to find and fix sibilance points on your tunings.
 
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Apr 17, 2024 at 12:03 PM Post #36 of 41
Right, of course you aren't going to get good results if you aren't identifying and targeting distinct problems, you need to know what your target is before engaging.

I'll try using my EQ tuning of the QDC V14 as an example to explain my strategy.

I used 6 filters here to address certain problems.

For the bass region (300Hz and below), I'm using two low shelf filters to shape the bass according to my preference for sub-bass (lots of it as you can see). On a HP this bass region would be completely nonsensical because the amount of kinetic energy generated by the driver is much higher in general, so less measured bass is required to create "correct" perceived bass levels. IEMs generate much less energy, so listeners consistently go for higher levels of bass (as seen in the Harman IE target) in general to compensate for the lost sensation of bass going from HP to IEM. Whatever your preference for bass is on HPs, add on significant amounts of sub-bass. I reduced the amount of mid-bass here because that stock amount was masking the pinna gain region (1k to 4k) too much for my liking, so I nudged it down 1.5dB to accentuate the pinna gain region's prominence in the tuning. Generally, you will want the overall level of mid-bass to be roughly within a 3:5 ratio to the pinna gain peak to avoid masking while still having sufficient body.

Mids before 1k generally form the baseline for the tuning as it contains the fundamental frequencies of much of modern music, so generally a flat response from 300 to 1k is preferable depending on how early your pinna gain region kicks in.

My pinna gain region (1.1k to 3k) is a problem area on most IEMs, so this area needed 3 filters to shape to my preference. First is a slight nudge down at 1.6k because vox stems and guitar harmonics were coming on a bit thick in the mix, this usually denotes an unbalanced ratio between the lower and upper pinna gain region. This of course then points the finger at the elephant in the room that is the notable notch at 3k. This notch causes me to perceive an elevation drop on the center of the sound image, which I fixed with a narrow 3dB peak hitting just that notch. I arrived at that level by ear, paying attention to the center image until it was at eye level. The last filter I used here was at 4.4k to address some mic buzzing and digital quality that was coming through on tracks. This region (4k to 5k) generally needs to gently slope down from the gain peak to help control odd harmonics that are generated from the 1k to 1.7k that cause a metallic tinge to permeate your mix, so you want to target that region whenever you hear that kind of noise.

The last filter I applied is at 8k to control some excessive sheen and borderline sibilance. This region is a common resonance point in measurement couplers so take the measured level with a grain of salt, but the resonance points of the human ear typically occupy the same area, so you might have to hunt around a bit to find and fix sibilance points on your tunings.
That's awesome... and also kind of proves many of my assumptions. IEMs are different, and (at least at this point) EQing them relies much more on tuning by ear. Developing a personalized target--rather than using a standard listener preference target--also requires listening to a lot of different IEMs. If that's the case, then tuning IEMs with EQ is really only a "fool's errand" when, like me, you've only listened extensively to a small handful of IEMs.

So it seems like my two options for EQing IEMs are: 1) wait until more reliable listener preference data emerges, or 2) wait until I've listened more thoroughly to a few dozen IEMs.
 
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Apr 17, 2024 at 12:15 PM Post #37 of 41
That's awesome... and also kind of proves many of my assumptions. IEMs are different, and (at least at this point) EQing them relies much more on tuning by ear. Developing a personalized target--rather than using a standard listener preference target--also requires listening to a lot of different IEMs. If that's the case, then tuning IEMs with EQ is really only a "fool's errand" when, like me, you've only listened extensively to a small handful of IEMs.

So it seems like my two options for EQing IEMs are: 1) wait until more reliable listener preference data emerges, or 2) wait until I've listened more thoroughly to a few dozen IEMs.
Nah, I don't think you need to do either. If you are a mixing/mastering engineer you can do what I'm describing by ear very quickly, but you don't need such listening skills to watch the graphic visualizer and figure out what sounds look like mapped out on the graph. Experiment with big peaks and notches and see how that affects what you hear, with enough experience you can identify odd sounding stems by ear and get very close quickly.

I was where you are now about 2 years ago when I first started getting into IEMs. You are right in that the tuning strategy is very different, but it's a systematic difference based on how HRTF affects HPs vs IEMs. It's not that arcane, the main things you need to pay attention to is the bass response, pinna gain response, and the balance between those two areas. Once you tune those to your preference, the rest is simple problem solving in the same way you would address HPs.
 
Apr 17, 2024 at 2:19 PM Post #38 of 41
Huh. Weird. I use a bunch of different PEQ sources, depending on the situation (Equalizer APO, Roon Muse, Roon ARC, Qudelix 5K, and Sound Source). Could really be that my ears just aren't used to listening to IEMs, so everything just generally sounds "off." Maybe the real answer here is that I just need to give myself time to listen to more IEMs and more different kinds of IEMs. Give my ears mileage to adapt?


Even with fine eq adjustments and player PMEQ settings the music never sounds quite right to me either. I've found changing ear tips gives far better results.
 
Apr 24, 2024 at 1:10 AM Post #39 of 41
Further adventures in my "fool's errand."

1) I'm discovering that IEMs have more in common with loudspeakers than with headphones. Placement is everything with both IEMs and speakers, and it takes as long to dial in the positions of a set of speakers in a listening space as it does to dial in the fit/position of my IEMs in my ears. Tip choice is huge in terms of where/how you can "place" an IEM, as are shell and nozzle shapes. They all affect placement. And placement has a much bigger effect on the tonal balance than anything I would try to do with EQ.

2) I'm learning that my tonal preferences on IEMs look very different on an FR graph compared to full-size headphones. When I was EQing before, I had been making adjustments based on what I know about my preferences on full-size headphones. Even minor boosts anywhere above 2kHz sounded terrible (and that's on IEMs with very recessed upper mids/lower treble). But that's because I was adjusting according to my over-ear preferences. Little wonder it sounded bad. But I am surprised by just how different my personal "preference curve" would look for each.
 
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Apr 24, 2024 at 5:25 AM Post #40 of 41
Apr 24, 2024 at 12:17 PM Post #41 of 41

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