[ken36]

I sure hope it's worth it.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif you categorically claim a person, if they can't hear something in an A/B session then they won't at home, then go on to claim that relating one chablis to another is somehow so much easier for folks to discern between but not cd players is just off the rocker mad.

Go to the store and buy two random brands and vintages of chablis. Pour two glasses of one and one glass of the other. Now play the Sesame Street song "One Of These Things Is Not Like The Others" and start drinking. I'll make you a bet you can figure out the odd one out without much trouble in a blind taste test. Now try that with CD players. Good luck. Discerning the CD players isn't going to be nearly as easy.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif True, because the differences between one chablis and another typically measure out on average to be 1.5 pesutijules in terms of magnitude, while the difference in sound between two good quality CD players typically measures out only to be .8 pesutijules in terms of magnitude. I am sure am glad we have the pesutijule standard to make these comparisons. Otherwise, statements like yours could be argued to be completely without any basis whatsover, or basically pulled out of one's b*tt.

The barnacle on my backside has spoken.

See ya
Steve

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Discerning the CD players isn't going to be nearly as easy.

I wholeheartedly agree. This is why I indicated that I don't believe A/Bing is the best way to appreciate the nuances of the player. This is why living with it for a time is. The brain gets acclimated to the sound and when the unit is swapped out, things will either be absent or newly present. It's not impossible as you seemed to have indicated, it just takes that extra time. For those that want to pursue this, there are returns on that investment, it isn't pointless.

That is all I every was trying to point it. It is not futile, but one has to gauge for themselves the absolute value of such a pursuit

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wholeheartedly agree. This is why I indicated that I don't believe A/Bing is the best way to appreciate the nuances of the player. This is why living with it for a time is. The brain gets acclimated to the sound and when the unit is swapped out, things will either be absent or newly present.

Why not then having lived with a component for a few weeks swap it for another but at this point do some blind tests, so you would have the experience of a few weeks listening to help you differentiate between the items ? By this time you know how it sounds so the test should be pretty fair.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why not then having lived with a component for a few weeks swap it for another but at this point do some blind tests, so you would have the experience of a few weeks listening to help you differentiate between the items ? By this time you know how it sounds so the test should be pretty fair.

Sure, I have done this plenty of times.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wholeheartedly agree. This is why I indicated that I don't believe A/Bing is the best way to appreciate the nuances of the player. This is why living with it for a time is. The brain gets acclimated to the sound and when the unit is swapped out, things will either be absent or newly present. It's not impossible as you seemed to have indicated, it just takes that extra time. For those that want to pursue this, there are returns on that investment, it isn't pointless. That is all I every was trying to point it. It is not futile, but one has to gauge for themselves the absolute value of such a pursuit

Again, well said. Particularly, the part about how "[t]he brain gets acclimated to the sound and when the unit is swapped out, things will either be absent or newly present." Many of us have experienced this, and don't have any problem hearing the differences between CD players, including between high-end CD players. That some are not able to appreciate such differences may be attributable to a number of factors. But the notion that all CD players, or all high-end CD players, sound the same -- for everyone -- is just startling to me. I find it amazing that some people repeatedly assert this. I wish I could lend them my system and my ears.

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sure, I have done this plenty of times.

Unsighted and level matched ? if so then that is valuable data for this debate.

Level matching I feel is crucial. For instance my Entech and CD players have quite different output levels (the Entech is up by about 0.5v), such that if I swap to the Entech from a built-in DAC it always sounds better instantly as it is noticeably louder. I have done this many times and it is always the same, maybe it is better but it is much harder to compare with the added variable in play.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wish I could lend them my system and my ears.

I've often felt this way as well. It comes down to most people don't care. For instance, I'm not a golfer, so when my buddies from around North America come back home every other year or so for a reunion, many of them want to go golfing. Some of these guys golf 4-5x/week. Their clubs are insanely priced (insane for me, a non-golfer) and offer only a few % better driving or putting, knocking their overall score down by 1-2 maybe. To them this is dramatic, to me its money wasted. They lent me the clubs, I didn't detect a difference. We're not talking about wooden clubs vs. metal vs. carbon and titanium. These guys were using pretty well the same stuff, just some had "better" models.

If I played with the clubs day in and day out for weeks, I bet I would know the difference though! Whether I would care to invest though is still another matter, but my body would have adjusted to the specifics of the clubs. To these same friends, my system is pretty, it sounds "incredibly clear and real, so much detail" but that is all they say, and they go back to their iPods and earbuds. These guys are all up >150k USD too (silicon valley boys) so its not as if they can't afford some finer things. They'd rather drop 1k+ on a single club, to each his own.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Unsighted and level matched ? if so then that is valuable data for this debate.

Yep, in fact, I've done this with Head-fiers and we were all able to detect the differences.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've often felt this way as well. It comes down to most people don't care. For instance, I'm not a golfer, so when my buddies from around North America come back home every other year or so for a reunion, many of them want to go golfing. Some of these guys golf 4-5x/week. Their clubs are insanely priced (insane for me, a non-golfer) and offer only a few % better driving or putting, knocking their overall score down by 1-2 maybe. To them this is dramatic, to me its money wasted. They lent me the clubs, I didn't detect a difference. We're not talking about wooden clubs vs. metal vs. carbon and titanium. These guys were using pretty well the same stuff, just some had "better" models. If I played with the clubs day in and day out for weeks, I bet I would know the difference though! Whether I would care to invest though is still another matter, but my body would have adjusted to the specifics of the clubs. To these same friends, my system is pretty, it sounds "incredibly clear and real, so much detail" but that is all they say, and they go back to their iPods and earbuds. These guys are all up >150k USD too (silicon valley boys) so its not as if they can't afford some finer things. They'd rather drop 1k+ on a single club, to each his own.

I'm also curious about the impact of mods and what those who believe that all CD players sound the same would offer on that subject. For example, I had my Electrocompanient DAC modified by Empirical Audio. Would the argument be that, when I got the DAC back, it sounded just like it did before? I find it hard to believe that if anybody lived with the stock DAC for a time, and then had the extensive modifications that were done, that when they listened to it again they could possibly say it sounded no different than before. That seems to be the implication of the argument, but maybe I'm missing something.

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yep, in fact, I've done this with Head-fiers and we were all able to detect the differences.

So Blind tests can produce positive tests, I wish you had said this 10 pages ago

 

[909]

I’ve heard a handful of computer sources at meets and never walked away impressed. In contrast, listening to the Meridian 508.24, G08 and even the Moth DAC (with a super cheap transport) I’ve felt the “I must acquire urge” or at least I've got to get something similar sounding. I’ve climbed the source ladder numerous times within the past few years starting with digging out my humble Sony D-555 to ordering the ESound E5 from CattyLink. Then I spent three weeks with the G08 and that ruined me.

At the time, my wife question that I even had the ability to tell the difference between the E5 and the G08. I had been pondering the idea of getting one so she wanted to test if I could hear the difference. Every time I picked right. It was very easy--just a few notes and I knew. After about the sixth blind test my wife gave in. I suppose if I didn’t have my reference system and music it would have been a little challenging.

I heard music vastly different from the G08 than I’ve ever heard before and realized the huge impact the source makes, but the G08 had an unnaturally beautiful presentation. Thereafter I’ve gone from the Apollo to the Saturn to the Reimyo CDP-777. With each new source I’ve experienced a big step-up in the musicality, detail retrieval, realism, etc.., and my overall enjoyment. And these gains were huge and noticeable to my ear. Yet on occasion my brain takes time to assimilate the way a new source presents sound--similar to one’s brain adjusting to a new pair of contacts or glasses.

About a week ago I heard the first computer source I’ve liked, the VRS II. Though, I am not sure it really qualifies as what most consider a “computer source” because it's more a hybrid. And a few days ago, I compared my CDP-777 to the new Denon 3930. Upon first listen I had this wow this Denon sounds great and it does, but after 20 to 30 minutes I started to hear the differences between the CDP-777 and they were drastic.

Without question, a high-end CD Player is worth it to me. I use it nearly every day. It has brought my system to a whole new level. It is easier on my ears and extremely engaging similar to vinyl. I just want to listen more and longer and tracks that didn’t seem special are expressed so real and convincingly I am captured in utter awe. The source is the foundation and everything must build on it so that it doesn't degrade or sugar coat the signal too much.

People still spin vinyl--new turntables are available at every price point. To a certain degree CDs and CD players should share a similar fate. Though, more and more people will gravitate towards this new technology of storing music whether it be on vinyl or CD on a hard drive. As long as it sounds good and has a good operating system, interface and is user friendly I suppose I'll gravitate too.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So Blind tests can produce positive tests, I wish you had said this 10 pages ago

Hehe, well was that the original position of the poster? He wanted to know if he should drop 1k+ on a player, I responded early on that I thought yes it would be a solid idea based on garbage in and garbage out and that provided one has the ancillary components which are up to snuff, a good CD player is indeed still worth it though no doubt my next move is a server to a sweet DAC.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm also curious about the impact of mods and what those who believe that all CD players sound the same would offer on that subject. For example, I had my Electrocompanient DAC modified by Empirical Audio. Would the argument be that, when I got the DAC back, it sounded just like it did before? I find it hard to believe that if anybody lived with the stock DAC for a time, and then had the extensive modifications that were done, that when they listened to it again they could possibly say it sounded no different than before. That seems to be the implication of the argument, but maybe I'm missing something.

I think this is the implication of the argument opposing the high-end CD player (and mods afterwards). Some claim that mods do nothing, they are snake oil meant to lighten the wallets of us suckers. I've heard my player, next to a stock model, then I've heard my player next to one with only the Level 3 mods by Parts Connexion. The units sounded different. Now admittedly, when I did these particular comparisons, I was hooked up to some megabuck gear, 100k worth of gear so distinguishing was easier, but then does this betray the stance of those that declare upgrading to a better CD player is worthwhile? No not at all. I think it simply further reinforces the fact that if one has a really nice item, that other nice items in the chain will usually bring out the good stuff in each other.