[Anders]

I got my first HD650 shortly after the introduction in autumn 2003 and have been very satisfied with it. Now, I need one more to have as my main headphone at another location. It arrived yesterday and it is not often I have an opportunity to compare a new and a burned-in headphone side by side.

Now to the main issue, how does an old and well burned-in HD650 compare with a completely new one? I started to compare my old HD650 with a Zu Mobius cable and the new with stock cable. The difference was obvious and I recognized the same somewhat diffuse and closed in sound with the new one that I had heard two years ago out of the box. Maybe this is the famous veil? Otherwise, the burned-in headphone with an upgrade cable sounded completely unveiled.

What makes the main difference, the upgrade cable, the burn-in of the headphone or the burn-in of the cable? I did some switching and comparison but not extensive enough for a definite answer. However, my impression is quite clear that the headphone burn-in is most important, then the upgrade cable and last the burn-in of the cable. The headphone sounds closed-in directly out of the box and no cables can change that. I have used only the Zu Mobius for a long time and now changed to the burned-in stock cable. The difference was very obvious and the presentation lost in soundstage, detail and dynamics. But I also noted a trace of forwardness and unnatural accentuation of the high frequencies with the Mobius that didn’t disturb me two years ago, maybe because the system was a little less resolved at that time or because my taste has matured.

Is the stock cable bad? I cannot agree with that and I find the stock cable quite OK when it is burned-in. The new stock cable sounded a bit harsh but not the old one that I had burned in for 100 hours (I listened to them in the burned-in headphone). The treble sometimes sounded a bit more natural with the stock cable on classical music than with the Zu Mobius, although the latter was better in all other aspects. I think is more adequate to state that the stock cable is OK, while most upgrade cables give an improvement. It is time to test another headphone cable. I am not as fast as some others who have gone through all a long time ago.

System:
Lindemann CD1 SE -> Audioquest Panther -> Corda Prehead mk II SE -> Zu Mobius-> Sennheiser HD650
Powered by PS Audio P300 and various PCs.

 

[JaZZ]

Thanks, Anders -- interesting report!

I have to confess that after the long time since my break-in adventure with the HD 650 I've become a bit unsure: How much of what I heard was due to getting used to the sound, and how much was effective driver break-in (beside headband loosening)? So your now experience helps me keeping my self-confidence in audio affairs.

(BTW: not a bad decision after all...)

 

[jesse_w]

of course, you have no way of eliminating variances between individual hd650s as the cause of the difference--you have not isolated burn in as a cause of any perceived difference. in order to effectively determine the difference burn in causes, you would have to have two brand new cans to listen to and see if indeed they sound exactly the same, and then you would have to burn one in and compare again.

jesse

 

[mulveling]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesse_w of course, you have no way of eliminating variances between individual hd650s as the cause of the difference--you have not isolated burn in as a cause of any perceived difference. in order to effectively determine the difference burn in causes, you would have to have two brand new cans to listen to and see if indeed they sound exactly the same, and then you would have to burn one in and compare again. jesse

Not quite - all he's gotta do is see if his new pair starts sounding more like his old pair with time!

 

[aaroncort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesse_w of course, you have no way of eliminating variances between individual hd650s as the cause of the difference--you have not isolated burn in as a cause of any perceived difference. in order to effectively determine the difference burn in causes, you would have to have two brand new cans to listen to and see if indeed they sound exactly the same, and then you would have to burn one in and compare again. jesse

I've listened to 3 pair of hd650's burned in all between 7000 and 2000 hours and and there wasn't enough difference between them when some friends and I A,B,C-ed them for us to pick out any certain one that stood out as being different in sound.

 

[DevilDog]

Thanks for the comparison, Anders. That's exactly what I would have guessed but it's great seeing it confirmed by someone that can actually compare them.

 

[kyrie]

Quote:

Not quite - all he's gotta do is see if his new pair starts sounding more like his old pair with time!

That wouldn't work either, since he'd get used to the sound of the new pair in the meantime.

 

[mulveling]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyrie That wouldn't work either, since he'd get used to the sound of the new pair in the meantime.

So my L3000's are gonna sound more like my PortaPros with time? That's depressing!

 

[Anders]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesse_w of course, you have no way of eliminating variances between individual hd650s as the cause of the difference--you have not isolated burn in as a cause of any perceived difference. in order to effectively determine the difference burn in causes, you would have to have two brand new cans to listen to and see if indeed they sound exactly the same, and then you would have to burn one in and compare again. jesse

Of course, my impressions post doesn't satisfy scientific criteria for an experimental study, and if that was the objective, there are many other uncontrolled conditions and sources of error as well. How many post and reviews satisfy all these criteria?
If you take the possibility of considerable sample variation seriously, it would be also be very difficult to make a review of HD650 vs DT880, for example. One of these could be wrong and you should get two or three to check this up. I am convinced that a headphone that continues to sound like an unburned-in HD650 would generally be regarded as second to headphones like HD600 and DT880.

I had an additional hypothesis that I didn't mention in the first post, that the perceived change mainly is an effect of habituation, becoming used to the new sound. In that case, the unburned-in headphone now would sound similar to the burned-in one (but not in 2003 when I had no habituation). Becoming used to the sound has been important to me but this seems mostly to have influenced other aspects as collecting experience of all characteristics of the sound and especially in evalutating what I heard, were different aspects of the sound more or less realistic than my previous references? It was mainly this evaluation that convinced me that HD650 is an excellent headphone, rather than an immediate experience of thrilling sound.

 

[Glod]

The need for audio equipment to burn in is obvious to me. But, with the 650 and the 595, I just cannot put the finger on any significant changes

There were certain tightnesses in the beginning, which seem to loosen up later. But the burn-in time developments of the phones were far from as clear as the ones of my amps and cables. It puzzles me quite a bit, actually

.

PS. Anders, I'll be visiting your country tomorrow local time!

 

[Anders]

Glod, have a good time in Sweden! The weather is not the best, but I think it is about as bad in all Northern Europe just now.

Burn-in behaviour and monitoring it is tricky. There is a slight possibity your HD650 is not fully burned-in. Mine didn't really open up until I had run loud, low frequency bass tones on it for more than 24 hours after "normal" burn-in time, but I don't know how much the bass tones did or if it just needed additional time.

 

[ken36]

Outstanding. This is the way I learn. Thanks.

 

[geek707]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anders Now to the main issue, how does an old and well burned-in HD650 compare with a completely new one? I started to compare my old HD650 with a Zu Mobius cable and the new with stock cable. The difference was obvious and I recognized the same somewhat diffuse and closed in sound with the new one that I had heard two years ago out of the box. Maybe this is the famous veil? Otherwise, the burned-in headphone with an upgrade cable sounded completely unveiled

How much burn in do you think it took to get the older set to where it is now? Did this all happen early, and once they changed they were stable for the last couple of years, or is it something that has happened over the full time you have had the older phones, and there is not a point where you said "Right!"?
I have a new pair also, and am courius to see if it makes any since to just leave them running over a few nights.
Great information.

 

[sonance]

This seems to bring up the classic burn-in question when it comes to high end audio - sure burn-in happens, but do you burn your equipment in or does your equipment burn you in?
Is the sound actually changing significantly or is your perception of the sound undergoing the significant change?
Having two pairs of headphones is a big help though, since you can check to see if the two headphones are still distinguishable in blind tests after significant burn-in. I know that I will be able to tell Grados and Senns apart after I've had a lifetime to get used to the sound of each.

 

[Anders]

Danamr, two years ago I was a little disappointed after 75 hours of burn-in because the headphone still hadn't opened up significantly. In my previous expecience, most of burn-in improvment had happened at this point, if there was any. After suggestion from other members, I tried to burn-in with bass tones (20 - 200 Hz) at high volume during 24 hours (be careful to set the volume with a high frequency tone because the low frequency tones can be deceptive and your risk overpowering the headphone).
After this, the headphone opened up significantly and this was a point where I could say "Right". But it needed at least 50 more hours of burn-in and normal playing before burn-in was complete. Hard to say where this point is, I would say at least 150 hours for HD650, burned in at high volume (high volume is higher than the normal listening level, but without risk of over-powering the headphone). I usually do so that I set the volume at a level that is the highest I would listen to, and then increase it a bit more with the headphone off my head.