[arnett]

Quote:

Originally posted by dd3mon If you buy a piece of music in any format, you as the consumer are entitled to copy that piece of music as many times and to as many other formats as you desire, as long as it is for your own personal use (ie not distributing it).

i'm sorry, but this is incorrect. you cannot technically make a copy of music you’ve purchased for your 'personal use.' technically, it's infringement.

you have a right to use the CD but not to reproduce it in anyway you see fit. you do not buy a 'right to copy' when you buy a CD.

i say it's technically civil infringement because many people copy the music they've bought and nobody is ever sued for it. that's only because it's not worth the copyright holder's time and expense to bring the suit. but it's still infringement.

you can read the 1976 copyright act here.

Check out sections 106 and 107.

just FYI.

 

[daniel422]

Quote:

i'm sorry, but this is incorrect. you cannot technically make a copy of music you’ve purchased for your 'personal use.' technically, it's infringement.

What!? Sure I can. It's right there in section 107. It's called "fair use". It's been a part of copyright law for a long time. It allows the copy of material for personal, non-commercial use. Technically I can copy most anything I've paid for -- as long as it's for my own use or meets certain academic criteria.

 

[Watchdog]

My understanding was that fair use including making copies of recordings for your own personal use (basically the same as Daniel's understanding) i.e. when I make copies to listen to in the car, that's considered fair use.

 

[diablo9]

personally I thought I can duplicate my own CD as long as I don't sell it to other people to make profit. am I wrong?

 

[soupy]

copy-protected cd's piss me off. I hate carrying around master copies ESPECIALLY my asian music cd's that I have to import or pay ridiculous prices for (the average price for a japanese cd is about $20+ USD!!, at this japanese bookstore I shop at I pay around $35-40 after tax and duties!!..ugh). However they're more of a nuisance than anything cuz I still burn copies of them..lol. It's pretty much the same as the marker trick but I use a small piece of electric tape to cover a small part of the section where the cd protection is written on (it's usually a ring on the edge of the disc). Then leave it to good ol' nero or audiograbber and backups for me~. I also believe that gamecopyworld has articles and links/progs that allow you to copy protected cds anyway. No matter what the industry does there will always be a way to bypass it.

 

[bundee1]

1) The prices record stores/companies charge for music is LUDICROUSLY HIGH!!!!! How much does the media cost? How much does the artist get? How much do the stores get? What does the consumer get? THE SHAFT!!!

2) Why dont the record companies look at the CRAP theyre putting out as the source of their drop in profits?

3)I BUY more cds now BECAUSE of the music I DOWNLOAD. It helps me discover NEW artists that I otherwise would never be exposed to. MTV gave up the ghost a long time ago and MTV2 is little by little turning into MTV.

If the record companies address points 1 and 2 pirating would go extinct. If 2 Nigerian guys can put out Eminems latest CD for $5 and still turn a profit I have no sympathy for the record companies. Youre trying to tell me that the remaining $12.99 that HMV is charging me is going to the artists, promotion, rent and distribution? GIVE ME A ******** BREAK!!!!!

 

[Orpheus]

look man.... the record companies are trying to maximize their profits. that's what a company does. ....they ripping you off? fine... don't buy their stuff.

but that doesn't mean that artists are not losing out. your arguments are just exucses to legitimize illegal actions.

...."3)I BUY more cds now BECAUSE of the music I DOWNLOAD. It helps me discover NEW artists that I otherwise would never be exposed to. MTV gave up the ghost a long time ago and MTV2 is little by little turning into MTV."

--that might very well be true.... FOR YOU.... but overall, MP3 technology is really hurting the industry. you might find yourself buying CDs more.... but i assure you, YOU ARE THE MINORITY. CD sales are way down.... and at this rate, you will not have any more MP3's to pirate for long!

 

[wordsworth]

Personally I believe the music industry had been stagnating for some time and has been afraid at times to embrace new technology. Personally I rarely download from P2P due to varying quality and would be happy to pay (though less than you would for a CD) for a legal MP3 (or variant) recorded at top quality. The main probablem is the companies have been unwilling to sell there different CD's all in one place, instead they have contracts with only certain sites, so you never get a full range of music.

The reason i hate copy protect is that companies have been promoting MP3 players and we have been buying but then want to stop us recording to MP3 so we can listen to the music we bought. I would never buy copy protected CD's. Hopefully this 'music piracy' will make the industry change and become more dynamic and responsive to changing consumer world.

Mark

 

[bundee1]

"look man.... the record companies are trying to maximize their profits. that's what a company does. ....they ripping you off? fine... don't buy their stuff."


Orpheus you just made my point!
Millions of people are getting ripped off and arent buying their music, thus the boom in bootlegging, and downloading.
Would you rather pay $5 for a cd or $17.99?
I find $12.99 a happy and not too ridiculous medium.
I work in retail and have watched our profits drop steadily since september 11. Many factors are contributing to the current recession and people are struggling to make ends meet. People dont have $20 to pay for a cd especially when that price isnt justifiable.

Some other factors contributing to the music industrys falling profits are the diversity of similairly priced entertainment options
and the proliferation of video games.

Movie ticket,popcorn,soda (NYC) $17
New release DVD $12.99-$19.99
Upper Deck ticket to baseball game-$14
2 pitchers of Yuengling+tip- $20

Any regular joe can get a HTIB hook it up to his TV and voila! Home theater.
Playstation 2 was introduced about 4 years ago and it now costs
$199.99 XBOX and Nintendo even cheaper. Games can be had for under $20.

Downloading may be hurting them, but not as bad as their pricing schemes,poor artist development, and plethora of similairly priced entertainment options!

 

[dd3mon]

Quote:

i'm sorry, but this is incorrect. you cannot technically make a copy of music you’ve purchased for your 'personal use.' technically, it's infringement.

No in fact you are incorrect, and it is in the very link you pasted to me that this is provent. As posted previously, "fair use" does in fact apply to copies intended for personal use. I can take my cds and make 5,000 copies of them on cd-r, minidisc, casette, mp3, monkey audio, DAT, and anything else I like as long as I don't distribute, sell or broadcast the music to the general public.

Protected CDs restrict my rights to do what I see fit with my recorded copy of music that I paid for - hence I have purchased no copy protected CDs for this reason alone.

DVD video attempted to pull off this same sort of copy protection - but failed when the protection was quickly and easily reverse engineered. Why is DVD-ripping software publicly available today? because it is not illegal to duplicate recorded material you own onto a different format.

This issue has been dealt with countless times over the past few years, and the findings and legal precedents have not changed.

-dd3mon

 

[Orpheus]

Quote:

I work in retail and have watched our profits drop steadily since september 11. Many factors are contributing to the current recession and people are struggling to make ends meet. People dont have $20 to pay for a cd especially when that price isnt justifiable.

well, how is it that you think the price is not justifiable then? do you realize how much money it really takes to make a CD?

think about it....... i'd say a decent wage in america is from $40,000-60,000/year. let's assume the artist spends one year making this CD.... well, there goes $40,000 already. then he has to pay for studio time..... i know that studios charge anywhere from $100/hour for crap studios... to $2000/hour for insane studios..... so, depending on the guy's budget... that's another $5,000-10,000 down the drain. then you gotta pay for your manager and that sort of thing.... i have no idea how much that costs............... but anyway, as you can see, it ain't cheap.

believe me, it's not easy to be a musician. bad CD sales only makes this profession worse.

so, perhaps you are correct and the record companies are profitting too much at the expense of their musicians............... but that's not the point. the point is the musician himself is losing out because of illegal CD copying/MP3's.

anyway, where the hell do you pay $20 for a CD!? you guys need to check out www.deepdiscountcd.com.... free shipping, no tax. prices cheaper than Best Buy. so, no more complaining about $20 CDs, k?

 

[bundee1]

Virgin, HMV, Coconuts, Tower Records, all these places charge anywhere from 16.99 to 18.99 for new single disc cds. Add tax and thats about 19.90 for a new cd. Anyway artist dont even get $1 a disc, thats why I say ***** the record companies.

 

[skagen]

Quote:

Originally posted by bundee1 1) The prices record stores/companies charge for music is LUDICROUSLY HIGH!!!!! How much does the media cost? How much does the artist get? How much do the stores get? What does the consumer get? THE SHAFT!!! 2) Why dont the record companies look at the CRAP theyre putting out as the source of their drop in profits? 3)I BUY more cds now BECAUSE of the music I DOWNLOAD. It helps me discover NEW artists that I otherwise would never be exposed to. MTV gave up the ghost a long time ago and MTV2 is little by little turning into MTV. If the record companies address points 1 and 2 pirating would go extinct. If 2 Nigerian guys can put out Eminems latest CD for $5 and still turn a profit I have no sympathy for the record companies. Youre trying to tell me that the remaining $12.99 that HMV is charging me is going to the artists, promotion, rent and distribution? GIVE ME A ******** BREAK!!!!!

Amen Brother. Thats exactly the problem. The record industry is milking consumers. Unfortunately for them technology has leveled the equation and now they are ****ed. Instead of adressing the key issues, they are busy trying to basically REDUCE your ability to legtimately copy the music you buy. And copying IS your right as long as its not commercial. You BUY the music, its not a rental.

1) First, prices are WAY to high overall. In a product like music, the industry should lower price and encourage people to buy and experiment more. Bear in mind that this is a product you cant return.

2) Price structure is screwed up. A new band that nobody knows should relase a new album $5-$7, vs someone like say U2 who everybody knows is good quality. Yet if you go to a store they are both like $15. Stupid pricing policy.

Also its even worse with older albums. Why should you charge $15-17 for an album that came out in 20 years ago. That kind of stuff should be far less than $10.

3) A good indicator that the record insustry is milking everyone: when CD's came out, they were cheaper to manufacture and distribute than Vinyl. Yet the industy STILL charged artists the same amount for production/distribution AND if anyhting INCREASEd the retail price. STUPID long term policy - and in nothing else a pure ripoff of the artists.

4) Putting all eggs in one basket. Instead of suporting a broad group of artists of quality, the labels go for dumb music that easy to promote and make big hits. But at the same time the personal touch is lost. People see this as "product" not art. Most of the money you pay goes for marketing and profits, not into the creation of the music itself.

When you combine that with the fact that the artists are being ripped off, why would ANYONE really have second thoughts about making multiple copies and distributing to friends or posting it on the net.

The record industry has no one to blame for the fact that it is lazy - the party is over now, screw them.

 

[Orpheus]

okay.... then like i said... try:

www.deepdiscountcd.com

again.... no tax, no shipping, and prices cheaper than the cheapest retail stores.

and really.... if you buy from those stores, you're not a very frugal person to begin with. ....for retail stores, i find Best Buy to be one of the best. they have a large selection (though not as large as Tower Records)... and they have no CDs over $14.99. most are a couple bucks cheaper than that.

......yes.... ****** record companies. but you still have to support the artists themselves. even if you're right, that artists get less than 5% of CD sales, that still does not change the fact that record pirating is hurting the artist. and that's the point i'm making. and think about this... if it weren't for these money-hungry meannie record companies, the artist would never have become successful in the first place. that's why some record companies are "big" and some are "indie."

 

[aos]

You're looking at it the wrong way. Sure, it does hurt artists if you don't buy CDs but that doesn't justify supporting the obsolete and unfair system. Low sales SHOULD force a change of such system to one where artist's payout is commensurate with the popularity of the album, instead of bringing up dozens of new ridiculous laws meant to keep the status quo. As a friend of mine likes to say, where did the God say that companies are entitled to profit? And if we didn't change our notion of what's illegal with time, slavery would still be the social system. Also, note that record labels are not losing money - it's just that their PROFITS are shrinking. Companies believe that they are entitled to 10%+ growth in profits every year. Well guess what, most people don't get 10% raise every year. Who do we have a system where you actually vote for representatives of companies which then use the office to enforce the "right to profit? Perhaps not buying CDs is the right and legal way to show opposition to this, but what are the chances the lawmakers would just find another way to get the money from you? E.g. forcing "artists fees" on radio, TV and even cinema programs, or what not. When you think about these issues, think of the bigger picture, things are not black and white.