iFi Audio Pro iDSD discussion thread
Mar 6, 2015 at 6:47 AM Post #436 of 3,458
   
I mentioned volume imbalanced below 9:30 am, it doesn't mean that I'm using it below 9:30 am. I mentioned it as something to be improved by ifi. Some amps and DACs don't have problem around 9 am with their volume pot. Why you keep mentioning that and what make you think that I'm using my iDSD micro at below 9:30 am?
 
I also have both micro iDSD and micro iCAN. I & @ClieOS wish that the quality of the Pro iDSD headphone output to be similar to micro iCAN, doesn't mean that the whole same footprint has to be put inside the Pro iDSD case, but to achieve similar quality. For example, I have Fiio E12DIY, much smaller than iCAN, now I use OPA827 + LME49600, and also battery powered, and the sound quality is much better than the iDSD micro headphone output. Remove the battery, and the whole circuit is small enough to be put inside the Pro iDSD.

 
I get what you are saying. Guess it doesn't bother me but it bothers you even though you don't use in this position. And as clie said this is the nature of the potentiometer. I do like this in detail knowledge.
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 11:48 AM Post #438 of 3,458
Let's talk about the Pro series some more now. This is the one keeping me thinking at night (even though money is tight right now because we are selling our house - but if it came out today I would buy one anyway).
 
So, does iFi listen to other DACs when designing their own. You know, without naming names, but just to compare some of the cookie cutter DACs to their own. 
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 2:53 PM Post #439 of 3,458
  Let's talk about the Pro series some more now. This is the one keeping me thinking at night (even though money is tight right now because we are selling our house - but if it came out today I would buy one anyway).
 
So, does iFi listen to other DACs when designing their own. You know, without naming names, but just to compare some of the cookie cutter DACs to their own. 

 
Hi,
 
When will you complete your house move?
 
We shall hold the launch of the iDSD Pro until after your house move...
 
Talk about customer service!
beerchug.gif

 
 
 
Seriously, while we listen to other DACs, we like to dig deeper and listen extensively to the different DAC chipsets themselves. This is why we left the ESS Sabre and moved over to the Burr-Brown.
 
We also really audition the parts, not just the DAC chipsets.
 
 
Like for example for the AMR machines, we have the famed Kondo M-7 (early model) which is as close to "straight wire with gain" as one can get. We put capacitors in the signal path there and conducted auditions. After comparing it the very nice capacitors out there, this is how we arrived at the newest AMR Tri-Core capacitor.
 
When we say we make our own capacitors, we really mean it.
 
This is the "little" puppy:
 

 
 
And when people talk about the 6922, we've moved onto the GE5670. This dude is soooo good, it is being trickled-up from the iTUBE into the AMR machines.  We put the parts where our mouth is.
 

 
Try and google the 6922 family and the 5670/2C51/WE396A/6N3 family and you will know why we don't mess with the 6922 anymore - good as it is, this "plain vanilla" model is nowhere near the premium "Bailey's Irish Cream gelato" version in the GE5670 family guise (yes, the WE396A is probably better but good luck with finding mint ones...)
 
 
WARNING: the GE5670 family is NOT a straight swap. Despite the same 9-pin configuration, the electrical pin outs are different. This is why this family of tubes never became popular and why we had to tool up and have a mould made specially for the GE5670 tube (as per the above picture).
 
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Mar 12, 2015 at 11:32 PM Post #443 of 3,458
From what I've read, I thought AKM made the most transparent sounding DAC chip?

 
Just about every DAC maker has made that claim one time or another, I'll imagine. Have two AK4396 based DAC myself, though I never find them to be more transparent than other DAC.
 
Mar 12, 2015 at 11:54 PM Post #444 of 3,458
I'm not talking about DAC manufacturer claims. But about those who I feel are competent designers who arent using the DAC of the month. Like Schiit or BJ Buchalter of Mertic Halo who will give you an honest opinion and not marketing hype.
 
Mar 13, 2015 at 12:17 AM Post #445 of 3,458
I'm not talking about DAC manufacturer claims. But about those who I feel are competent designers who arent using the DAC of the month. Like Schiit or BJ Buchalter of Mertic Halo who will give you an honest opinion and not marketing hype.


So Schiit and BJ aren't DAC manufacturers, just designers so their options are without "motive"?
And what about iFi / Amr and their marketing levels and using Burr Brown chips- Are those chips and opinions sufficiently transparent?

Buy some devices, listen to them, test them. Sell them if you don't enjoy product X.
But move to Product Y and repeat the process based on your ears- not the opinions of any manufacturer.
 
Mar 13, 2015 at 1:53 AM Post #446 of 3,458
Actually I do have an AKM equipped Schiit DAC on my desk right now. Can't say it is the most transparent sounding DAC I ever heard, not that it isn't good either. Sometime it is better to listen to one in person to make the call, work for me in this case.
 
Mar 13, 2015 at 3:28 AM Post #447 of 3,458
So Schiit and BJ aren't DAC manufacturers, just designers so their options are without "motive"?
And what about iFi / Amr and their marketing levels and using Burr Brown chips- Are those chips and opinions sufficiently transparent?

Buy some devices, listen to them, test them. Sell them if you don't enjoy product X.
But move to Product Y and repeat the process based on your ears- not the opinions of any manufacturer.


agreed...each designer and manufacturer will certainly have a story about why they chose their specific DAC chip...some are certainly more vociferous than others, but to think that all are without "motive" is a bit naive. i've actually been reading up on different DAC chips in the last couple of weeks as i am in the market for a mid-fi DAC...i have the iDSD micro and need to spend more time with it as a DAC to get a better sense of it, but i admit i am leaning toward finding an older R2R chip-based DAC like the PCM1704 or 1702 or PCM63.
 
Mar 13, 2015 at 7:08 AM Post #448 of 3,458
   
Just about every DAC maker has made that claim one time or another, I'll imagine. Have two AK4396 based DAC myself, though I never find them to be more transparent than other DAC.

 
Hi,
 
There is always someone claiming DAC Chip YYY from Brand XXX is the best, most transparent, most musical and whatever else. You can find the same thing for Op-Amp Chip du jour, capacitor du jour and pretty much any other part.
 
Most of this is just something that you read. Like what you read in "The Sun", "The Daily Mail" or in any other tabloid in the world.
 
Behind the scenes, few if any have/take the time and effort to forensically analyse each and every part and apply it and optimise it to the max. No we don't mean read the datasheet. We mean drill down to the silicon die-level.
 
From our experience, we can cite the AMR CD-77. This has the infamous TDA1541A.
 
Outside

 
 
Inside

 
During the golden era of multibit, many a player had the TDA1541A. Pretty much most were implemented stock. But to the very best of AMR's knowledge, instead of leaving to run on a separate clock only the CD-77 implementation of the TDA1541A synchronised the Dynamic Element Matching (DEM) circuit with the Sample Clock. The issue with a separate, non-synchronised clock is that it can create "beat-notes" with the sample frequency which degraded both static (sinewave) and dynamic (music) performance.
 
The AMR Digital Engine - which beats at the heart of the CD-77

Further reading: http://amr-audio.co.uk/html/faq_cd.html#ref 
> How does the CD-77 implementation of the Philips TDA1541A chipset differ to other designs?
 
Much of the selection grades (Crowns) was from our point of view, likely down to this problem and the ration between the on-chip clock for DEM and the Audio Clock. Synchronise the Audio and DEM clock and run DEM at the right speed (too slow or too fast degrades sound quality) and all TDA1541A sound and measure like a Double-Crown chip.
 
Read: Optimisation above and beyond the best the slicon manufacturer intended and designed-in, by understainding the Chip at pretty much a single transistor level.
 
For those who have not read this before, a little side reading here:
 

Technical Notes (3)

 

Cherry-Picking the Chipset: Going to the nth degree

http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-crowd-designed-v0-16-beta-firmware-calling-iclub-members-page-135/690#post_10617050
 
The pictures below give you some idea of the length we go to (from the nano iDSD right through to the AMR CD-77).
 
1. Audiophile Level (where most audio customers discuss...no offence meant so hope none taken)

 
 
 
2. Datasheet Implementation Level

 
 
 
3. Advanced Level

 
 
4. AMR/iFi Level

 
So you see, one should implement everything as well as one possibly can, starting from maxxing the chipset out and choosing the parts and the rest of the components as well as you find them. Design the circuit board well so ground, impedance issues are all well addressed etc etc. ONLY then can you truly hear what this chipset or that chipset is truly capable of.
 
But to just choose a chipset listening to it stock is not the way we roll.
 
To us, it is a bit like cramming for exams versus studying throughout the year. You know who we are.
 
In many ways what we do with the TDA1541 is similar to what we do with the DSD1793. We make it do things the chip manufacturer never imagined and intended and get results that seem "impossible"...a bit like Scotty in the engine room of the USS Enterprise.
 

 
It is all very nice hearing about how we do things a little differently but in the final analysis, what you hear is how "REAL" AMR/iFi components sound, not how the bass or the treble is this or that or how it measures this well or that well. We still cover these aspects well but we hope you understand and trust that we always try go a little further.
 
It is how much the music pulls on our heartstrings, so to speak. This what we look for at AMR/iFi.
 
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Mar 13, 2015 at 7:19 AM Post #449 of 3,458
 
agreed...each designer and manufacturer will certainly have a story about why they chose their specific DAC chip...some are certainly more vociferous than others, but to think that all are without "motive" is a bit naive. i've actually been reading up on different DAC chips in the last couple of weeks as i am in the market for a mid-fi DAC...i have the iDSD micro and need to spend more time with it as a DAC to get a better sense of it, but i admit i am leaning toward finding an older R2R chip-based DAC like the PCM1704 or 1702 or PCM63.

 
We agree.
 
What we are doing is trying to find modern Chips that give us as much as possible of the unique qualities of the older PCM DACs for PCM replay, while also getting the best out of DSD. Is what we use as good as the PCM63? It's darn close if we can say that.
 
Actually, on purely technical measures what we use is better. On sound quality it seems to have retained much of what made the PCM63 one of the 3 Kings of Digital (the other two being - AD1862 and AD1865 - the TDA1541A Double Crown remains Emperor).
 
For those who are interested:
 

 

 

 
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