[mvw2]

Well, I'm hoping someone can point me to a couple options. I'm looking at purchasing a new in-ear headphone, but I don't know if what I want actually exists.

I have two simple requirements, and I've found them in two different headphones. I'm trying to find the one headphone with both.

Transparency:
My bro somewhat recently got a Denon C700. It's a decent enough IEM. I would expect Denon to make something halfway decent. The biggest thing that struck me was the transparency of the sound from the headphone. One could actually "see" the recording room and spacial aspects within the music. I like this. I want this. The downside is the Denon sucks in frequency response, requiring EQing, and has terrible bass, enough so where I almost can't listen to them with some songs, even after EQing. The bass is a terrible drawback of the set that doesn't really seem fixable without simply cutting out the lower frequencies.

Flat frequency response:
This is something I've come to like. I like it in home audio, car audio, and personal audio. Yuin is wonderful at this. My bro has their PK2. It's a nice bud phone and the frequency response is basically spot on throughout, not needing more then 1dB anywhere in the usable frequency response range. The downside is the Yuin is (a) not an in-ear phone and (b) not transparent.


I'd be a happy camper with the Denon if the bass response wasn't junk. I could stand to add a little EQing, although, I'd prefer a solution that doesn't require it. The Yuin is quite good in many regards, but it isn't transparent. Transparency is a very hard aspect to achieve in any type of audio. I have used very few drivers in car and home audio that could actually disappear. In head-fi, the Denon, surprisingly, does it. It's the only one I've listened to so far that does. The flat response may be tough. It seems most companies really don't shoot for it. Yuin does and hurray for them. I'm curious how well their Ok phones fair.

About the only other stickler is price. I'm not looking to spend a ton, so something like the W3 or IE8 are beyond my range. Think $100 or less.

 

[kaushama]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvw2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Flat frequency response: This is something I've come to like. I like it in home audio, car audio, and personal audio. Yuin is wonderful at this. My bro has their PK2. It's a nice bud phone and the frequency response is basically spot on throughout, not needing more then 1dB anywhere in the usable frequency response range. The downside is the Yuin is (a) not an in-ear phone and (b) not transparent.

This is what I am looking for for sometime!

Good luck if you find one! Let me know as well.

 

[Taikero]

If I were suggesting something in the sub-$100 range, it'd be the ER6i first, and Shure SCL4 (White only) second. The SCL4 is going to be warmer than the ER6i, but I feel it gives a more natural response while still being mostly neutral. Third option would be the new Apple Dual Driver IEM for a darker and somewhat neutral sound, and fourth but equal option to the ADDIEM would be the Nuforce NE-7M for a sparkly sound with a fair amount of bass and mostly neutral mids.

Review on ER6i with reviews for a number of popular IEMs: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/r...2-08-a-335851/

Here's a review on the SCL4: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/s...5/#post5245519

Review on ADDIEM: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/n...-er-6i-391701/

Review on NE-7M: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/r...n-c700-383617/

Good luck with making your decision!

 

[panda]

you're asking for a pound of gold for the price of bronze, not gonna happen. but etymotic er4s is not much more than a bill and is the epitome of transparency.

 

[Taikero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by panda /img/forum/go_quote.gif you're asking for a pound of gold for the price of bronze, not gonna happen.

I completely agree with this. You likely won't be happy unless you spend somewhere in the $150-$200 range.

But hey, a budget's a budget!

 

[ZephyrSapphire]

What you're looking for (flat response) is definitely the ER4S but it's definitely not in your price range.

 

[TacticalPenguin]

as others said, ER 4 either P or S is your bet, but since those are a little past your price, I'd pick the SCL4 or ER 6i as an alternative.

 

[mark2410]

for under a $100US i say SCL4

 

[mvw2]

No mention of the Yuin OK2? I only ask because the PK2 is one I liked very much and is the only headphone that I've used that actually has a flat response. It just isn't transparent. Any of you ever try the OK phones and could compare to something like the ER6i, SCL4, etc.?

I just want to be clear on transparency. When I say this I mean invisible, as in you don't hear the headphone. You can't even locate the headphone. The sound is just...there. This has nothing to do with lightness of sound, openness, separation of instruments, etc. although certain aspects do tend to come along with it. You see the instrument, the singer, not the headphone making a copy of that sound.

I am slightly less focused on frequency response as it can be fixed, although it would be nice not to have to EQ. I do see poor frequency responses as a rather big problem with most head phones. There are also a LOT of skewed reviews because of it as well as most folks do not EQ their phones. Any review taken unadjusted is skewed to any stock response the phone has. Now this is accurate for anyone just using them on any source device, but for anyone with EQ capability, the review isn't necessarily accurate to the capability of the product, at least not on equal levels because frequency response overshadows many aspects.

Getting a little off-topic, I made a mini-review of the few phones I've listened to, well not all but the immediate ones I was comparing. My focus was a balanced comparison with all headphones EQed flat. In this setup, the results and impressions are very different then they would be with no EQing. The presentation is just so different otherwise. At the very least, it will give some look into my thinking and preferences.
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/m...in-pk2-369643/

 

[panda]

that's something no headphone pulls off, the closest one is the stax sr007 which is like fifteen times your budget for the fones alone.

not to be rude but the rest of your post just reads like pretentious nonsense. it doesnt make any sense and isn't related to anything. transparency does not mean flat and eqing isnt going to let more light shine through a piece of dirty glass if you catch my drift. if anything, it adds more grime to the picture so you hear the fones even more...

 

[mvw2]

Of course it isn't. Transparency is completely separate from response. I'm not saying they're the same. I'm saying I want both in one unit.

Transparency is me seeing the instrument rather then me seeing the headphone making the sound of that instrument.

Frequency response is a whole other issue. I just have a personal gripe with it because so few headphone manufacturers don't seem to care or seem to focus towards some colored presentation. Yuin is the only phone I've used that doesn't need EQing, i.e. partially why their products are widely loved (surprise...). I'll say frequency response affects the end sound and can overshadow characteristics. Two different headphones will sound very different from each other simply because of the frequency response. If both headphones are EQed equal, a LOT of the differences disappear, and then a lot of the smaller details and differences shine through like level of detail, speed, separation, etc.

I never said frequency response in any way affects transparency, two very separate things.

The Denon C700 is transparent (mid and high frequencies, not bass). The Yuin PK2 is flat but not transparent.

Transparency is also separate from stage width and separation which folks seem to commonly talk about. In a lot of reviews, transparency seems largely ignored, sort of in the sense that it isn't even expected or is not capable in a small earphone.

I apologize if I'm not terribly coherent. I am sort of just babbling here. The headphone realm of audio is a little different then what I'm used to. People address headphones on a whole a little different then they would with home or car audio. Comments and reviews take on a different light. I will talk about things from a different angle then most folks here.

My concern right now is I'll buy something, and I still won't be happy with it. The closest "safe" bet in my mind is Yuin's OK2, at least if it's close to their PK series.

 

[Xena]

If you were to find earphones with a flat freq. response, you'd probably hate the sound. You are not talking about a speaker creating sound that floats through the air and all freqs hit your ear at the same time ... you are talking about tiny components that create the sound within a small and oddly shaped chamber (your ear canal). The freq. curve HAS to be adjusted so that it sounds flat. Read some material by earphone manufacturers, not just user forums.

As for transparency, may not be achievable without hypnosis. Again, with speakers you can close your eyes and play the "is it live or is it recorded" game. Earphones are shoved into your ear canals. You'll always know they are there ....

I say, why worry about some preconceived notions of what they should sound, be, or test like ... buy some and if you like the sound, enjoy them. No one cares if you have the most transparent earphones. No one cares if they have the flattest freq. response. And if they did, they would not be reproducing the music accurately. It's about enjoying the music.

 

[Calexico]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xena /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you were to find earphones with a flat freq. response, you'd probably hate the sound. You are not talking about a speaker creating sound that floats through the air and all freqs hit your ear at the same time ... you are talking about tiny components that create the sound within a small and oddly shaped chamber (your ear canal). The freq. curve HAS to be adjusted so that it sounds flat. Read some material by earphone manufacturers, not just user forums. As for transparency, may not be achievable without hypnosis. Again, with speakers you can close your eyes and play the "is it live or is it recorded" game. Earphones are shoved into your ear canals. You'll always know they are there .... I say, why worry about some preconceived notions of what they should sound, be, or test like ... buy some and if you like the sound, enjoy them. No one cares if you have the most transparent earphones. No one cares if they have the flattest freq. response. And if they did, they would not be reproducing the music accurately. It's about enjoying the music.

I'm sure I'd enjoy music more with headphones if I didn't realize I had them on, and thought the music was simply around me, which is what he is asking for.

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvw2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Transparency is also separate from stage width and separation which folks seem to commonly talk about. In a lot of reviews, transparency seems largely ignored, sort of in the sense that it isn't even expected or is not capable in a small earphone.

This is very hard for earphones to achieve, especially IEMs. I don't think you will get as much transparency as a home audio loud speaker out of an IEM. That's because most live music and instruments generate sound from bigger sources and are more spatially distinct. Our ears perceive sound from the direction it cames from. In home audio the speakers are in front of you in earphones they are right on the sides.

IEMs will always sound smaller because the sound is generated centimeters from your ear canals and is unnatural to how we perceive sound in real life. So the sound will alway be tiny and somewhere in and around your head. I don't think our brains can process spatiality from a sound source so close to the ears. You will get depth perception within the sound stage but not the sense that there is a stage 6-8 feet in front of you.

That said my Shure SCL4s are fairly transparent but in an IEM sort of way. So if you are looking for home stereo level transparency you won't get it. You have to change your expectations.


Quote:

I apologize if I'm not terribly coherent. I am sort of just babbling here. The headphone realm of audio is a little different then what I'm used to. People address headphones on a whole a little different then they would with home or car audio. Comments and reviews take on a different light. I will talk about things from a different angle then most folks here.

I had the same issue for a while but realized that headphones are different and learned to adjust my frame of reference.

Quote:

My concern right now is I'll buy something, and I still won't be happy with it. The closest "safe" bet in my mind is Yuin's OK2, at least if it's close to their PK series.

That will always be the case. Welcome to audio. Sorry about your wallet.

 

[mape00]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvw2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of course it isn't. Transparency is completely separate from response. I'm not saying they're the same. I'm saying I want both in one unit.

But they are essentially the same... To make a transparent headphone you need design criteria: a frequency response at the eardrum (modulo design criteria such as high frequency roll-off and DF or similar equalization).