[Drubbing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif that's a nice story Erik, but most companies are selling +50 yo technologies.

How does that make R&D invalid? the petrol combustion engine is twice as old, but does that make the efforts of carmakers to squeeze more horsepower from an engine, using less fuel, any less 'R&D' because the engine was invented over 100 years ago?

Then there are new materials; plastics and metal, allowing design to be taken further. All these things have to be designed and trialled with drivers, and all parts redesigned and tweaked accordingly; the drivers have to sound the way they want them to sound with newer materials.

As for costs, the multinational have economies of scale, the bigger they are, the cheaper they can buy materials for.

I'm not saying they don't make large profits over and above their costs, of course they do. Smart companies make that difference bigger than the rest, and if they sell more too, then that is generally judged to be a winning company.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif companies like Ultrasone are different, they invest in new technologies in their $200/$300 models(S-Logic/S-Logic Plus musta cost money at some point)...but selling +50 yo technologies for $200 means huge markups IMHO, same goes for Grado/Denon etc etc

Ultrasone technology is nothing but a marketing gimmick IMO.

 

[Bluecold]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mritt400 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please explain Grados then...those things can't cost more than 3-5 USD to produce, including the cost of labor, were designed who-knows-how-long-ago, and the money sure as hell ain't going toward marketing, or website...I think it comes down to an even more basic economic principal: supply v. demand.

There are ~5 major brands in quality headphones. And the performance per price level is comparable. If Grado could really make a profit on SR's for $50 then why don't they do that and blow the other mfg's out of the water?
If there really was a precarious status quo in which no brand would dare to compete on price, it wouldn't have lasted the ~40 years it has without any new brand bringing a new line of cans on the market which kicked ass on their respective price level.

 

[mritt400]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluecold /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are ~5 major brands in quality headphones. And the performance per price level is comparable. If Grado could really make a profit on SR's for $50 then why don't they do that and blow the other mfg's out of the water? If there really was a precarious status quo in which no brand would dare to compete on price, it wouldn't have lasted the ~40 years it has without any new brand bringing a new line of cans on the market which kicked ass on their respective price level.

Because demand dictates that Grado can get more money for their product. Demand determines how much a product can be sold for far more than the cost of materials and labor. Maintaining this profit margin obviously makes sense for the company. Goal # 1 for any company is to stay profitable and in business, Step # 2 remain competitive and profitable.

 

[leeperry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drubbing /img/forum/go_quote.gif How does that make R&D invalid? the petrol combustion engine is twice as old, but does that make the efforts of carmakers to squeeze more horsepower from an engine, using less fuel, any less 'R&D' because the engine was invented over 100 years ago? [..] Ultrasone technology is nothing but a marketing gimmick IMO.

well, the first DT770 were released in the early 80's I think? and they were based on some design from the 50's or so(DT48?)? I dearly hope the R&D costs have been covered over the last 30 years.

Did you actually hear some Ultrasone's? It sure sounds like they've put some money into their SS technologies...unlike many companies that have simply been rehashing the same old same old for the past 60 years. Some ppl say that Edition 8 sounds almost as good as the R10

When new engines that consume less gas and output less pollution are released, they most likely use the newest technologies available....I've got a hard time believing that Grado or BD have invested any sort of major bucks into the R&D of their $200/$300 range in the past 30 years or so...it's like nvidia renaming its G92 chip to death, it's got a new name...but it's the same damn core as 2 generations before, they call it "soak and run"

 

[roker]

All I know is that I'm happy most Grado headphones are made in the US (iGrado being the exception). It's something to be proud about since everything else usually gets outsourced to China. Even if they were made elsewhere, the cans still rock, but knowing you're supporting a family-owned business that still invests in their own country is well worth it to me.

 

[leeperry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roker /img/forum/go_quote.gif All I know is that I'm happy most Grado headphones are made in the US (iGrado being the exception). It's something to be proud about since everything else usually gets outsourced to China. Even if they were made elsewhere, the cans still rock, but knowing you're supporting a family-owned business that still invests in their own country is well worth it to me.

it's been more or less proven that the drivers were sourced from China...but well, I understand there's a huge Grado fan base on this forum so let's just avoid the subject..."made w/ pride in the US", Joe makes them in his garage on sunday afternoons

 

[Necrolic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiisus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Does anyone know how much headphones actually cost? I don't mean mean the MSRP or sale value or anything like that. I mean, how much do they cost to manufacture? People bash BOSE for using cheap materials, but charging a hell of a lot. But, I'm just going to take a guess and say that the HD800 doesn't cost $1300 to produce...I get they sound good and all, but isn't that similar? I don't know, I'm sure I'll get flamed for being a n00btard, but whatever. And just for clarity; I'm not a BOSE fan!

I get where you're coming from and you do have a point, everything is overpriced, not just headphones. The reason people complain about Bose though is not that they overprice the headphones in comparison to manufacturing costs, but that they overprice the headphones in comparison to the performance the headphones give.

For example, with the HD800s, sure they're very expensive, and most likely way overpriced in comparison to manufacturing costs, but they are also one of the best headphones out there right now. It's not as though you can go out and buy just as good or better cans for a lower cost than the HD800s.

Bose in comparison, sells something like their On-Ear Headphones at $150-$175, but the actual sound quality of those headphones is comparable to headphones you can buy for $50-$75.

See what I'm saying?

 

[leeperry]

there's no question that you're paying for R&D and labor for the HD800....so many ppl working on so few pairs per day(from what their internal propaganda said), it has a cost.

 

[betweentheears]

Welcome to capitalism!!!

 

[MomijiTMO]

O___O

Umm no. It's not as if this is going though a tonne of hands so I don't understand where you are coming from.

 

[ruknd]

'bout 'tree fiddy

 

[sithompson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mritt400 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please explain Grados then...

I would like to know why they cost between 1.5 to 2 times as much in the UK as in the US. I've read what John Grado has to say on the subject and it can't, in any way, be justified. I'll defend Grado's “until the cows come home” as they say in the UK, but they seem to price themselves out of the market.

 

[Bluecold]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mritt400 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Because demand dictates that Grado can get more money for their product. Demand determines how much a product can be sold for far more than the cost of materials and labor. Maintaining this profit margin obviously makes sense for the company. Goal # 1 for any company is to stay profitable and in business, Step # 2 remain competitive and profitable.

Spare me your highschool economics and explain me why, according to you, Grado can make cans for 10% of the price as Sennheisers and still sound better.
It seems unlikely because that would mean Sennheiser wouldn't understand headphones at all.

I second the notion that Grado's are way overpriced in the civilised world. Luckily you don't have to buy them via local retail.

 

[mritt400]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluecold /img/forum/go_quote.gif Spare me your highschool economics and explain me why, according to you, Grado can make cans for 10% of the price as Sennheisers and still sound better. It seems unlikely because that would mean Sennheiser wouldn't understand headphones at all. I second the notion that Grado's are way overpriced in the civilised world. Luckily you don't have to buy them via local retail.

Easy there, Bluecold...I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I belive Grado has a wider profit margin within a specialized market than say, Sennheiser to use your example, vis. materials, marketing. I suspect the primary reason for this is a comparatively low overhead, tried-and-true design, along with a consistent demand for a good product. Clearly Sennheiser knows headphones plenty well - so, I guess I don't understand your position. This is my opinion, and oh, I am planning to enroll at Wharton just to take your class...can't wait.

 

[Bluecold]

Okay, I'll try again, this time explaining my position in just one sentence:
"If Grado can make headphones headphones for $5 and sell them for $80, why can't Sennheiser make better headphones for $10 and sell them for $70, thereby driving Grado out of the market?"