[colonelkernel8]

Well it's not really necessary to do that to show up a hole in your arguments. You're trying to be conclusively dismissive of the possibilities, which is wrong since the limits/weights is not well defined yet. So about "measuring" these changes with cables, I'm not sure, we'll first have to solve cognition first again, get our correlation matrices wrt thresholds and weights right then we can be fairly conclusive of things. For now the only option is to be open to things. No need to accept what some one else says, just be open to the possibilities.

Imagine making and selling a product based solely on the possibility it "sounds" better than a competing product and offer no tangible reason as to why.

Tell me, has anyone ever given a negative review of a cable on this website? A negative review of a DAC (from the sound perspective, not from the usability/functionality perspective)?

 

[bigshot]

I keep asking people to share a DAC with me that is clearly inferior sounding, and no one yet has offered one. It's the same with cables. As soon as we start talking about doing controlled listening tests to verify their impressions, they ghost us.

 

[Bernard23]

I keep asking people to share a DAC with me that is clearly inferior sounding, and no one yet has offered one. It's the same with cables. As soon as we start talking about doing controlled listening tests to verify their impressions, they ghost us.

As far as I know, no "expert" gear reviewer has ever run a remotely scientific evaluation of any gear, certainly not in the world of magazine journalism. Once I started reading that USB cables made a noticeable sonic difference, then I stopped reading, but then I believe hi res audio isn't necessary, and nothing more than a piece of clever marketing.

 

[XPHXPH]

you need a good measurement or enough sample of blind AB test.

if that is not working, then let it go.

 

[castleofargh]

A lot of troublesome stuff written in the last pages. I'll never see the end if I reply to each quote, so I'll just go for the main ideas.

1/ can we measure differences in cables?
Of course. It's not 1432 anymore. Let's not drag all of science and engineering down to the level of the most ignorant persons on a subject.
But most people want to know if swapping a cable can be audibly different. That obviously requires a listening experiment, not measurements.

2/ nothing about hearing differences can or should be stated before we properly establish audibility(or fail to). And that's the problem most audiophiles have. They strictly refuse or are too lazy to do a listening test. We ask for blind test, they turn a death ear and "listen" with their eyes.
Having an open mind isn't limited to considering that we don't know everything about measurements or the science behind electrical conductors. Being open minded means considering all possible options. That includes looking in a mirror once in a while and acknowledging our many human flaws and limitations.
We can't help being biased, but we can acknowledge it and come up with testing methods that won't be as biased as we are.


We know that one sensory input will affect how we perceive another one. Seeing the cable and seeing the swap, will influence how we hear the music.
We know that when being fooled into imagining certain changes in sound, the brain can activate the same areas of the auditory cortex it would if we actually heard the audio change. So under such conditions, the listener will feel like he's hearing the change. For the brain, as far as we know, it's pretty much happening. The audio cue on the other hand, doesn't even have to exist.

Aaaa-ni-maniii-acs, those are the facts!

makes a pretty good case for blind testing IMO. not that blind testing needed support when it comes to subjective impressions. as it's been a standard method used in all relevant research sectors for decades. only amateur audiophiles work real hard into rationalizing why being a lazy overconfident ignoramus is the cleverest most accurate source of information.




In conclusion:
Yes in some special circumstances(some IEMs) or with one really weirdo cable, you might end up with truly audible differences between 2 cables. But most cabling in audio follows some standard, so it's much more likely that you'll get similar cables for a given purpose leading to no experience of change as far as sound is concerned. But getting biased by the look, the price and some marketing crap is still on the table for all users.

Yes it's irritating to read absolutist statements like "all cables are the same and sound the same". Obviously there are many different types of cables with different electrical characteristics. in some cases plugged into some gears, the differences could have impacts of audible magnitude. again the possibility is there. Lower your expectations in term of impact(or make them up in your head), because at the end of the day, audio cables are short conductors carrying pretty slow signals. It's not challenging to do it well for cheap.

Yes it's irritating to read claims about the sound of cables that are systematically sponsored by "dude trust me" from the interweb. If someone claims that a sighted impression is the most accurate window into objective sound, I'm going to trust nothing that guy says. It's just a level of wrong that kills the mood.

I read everything and I hate most of you. have a wonderful day(or night).

 

[playmusic]

I came across a video titled "This high-end dealer doesn’t recommend expensive cables!"
The main message of the dealer is to spend money on speaker, amplifier, DAC, CD-player rather than on cables.
But at 1:44 (link) he states that it is "absolutely true that better cables make a difference".
He goes on to cite a DBT from stereo review 1983 as evidence.

So, I looked up the test (link).
On page 3 of this article, it is stated: "A 1- to 2-dB decrease in sound level was measured for the 24-gauge wire during the pink-noise listening tests [...]".
This is in line with physics because a thinner cable has a higher resistance. Btw, the three tested cables were 30 foot.
On the next page, it is stated: " For one of the Monster Cable/24-gauge comparisons the two cables were matched in gain level within 1 dB using a potentiometer [...]".
A difference of 1 dB SPL is clearly audible, so the "evidence" only shows that listeners were able to differentiate sounds within 1 dB. Quite easy for people with normal hearing.

So, either a) the interviewee/interviewer were not aware of the details of the test or b) the catchy title was only selected by the interviewer to advertise the benefits of cables via the backdoor.

 

[Kentajalli]

I came across a video titled "This high-end dealer doesn’t recommend expensive cables!"
The main message of the dealer is to spend money on speaker, amplifier, DAC, CD-player rather than on cables.
But at 1:44 (link) he states that it is "absolutely true that better cables make a difference".
He goes on to cite a DBT from stereo review 1983 as evidence.

So, I looked up the test (link).
On page 3 of this article, it is stated: "A 1- to 2-dB decrease in sound level was measured for the 24-gauge wire during the pink-noise listening tests [...]".
This is in line with physics because a thinner cable has a higher resistance. Btw, the three tested cables were 30 foot.
On the next page, it is stated: " For one of the Monster Cable/24-gauge comparisons the two cables were matched in gain level within 1 dB using a potentiometer [...]".
A difference of 1 dB SPL is clearly audible, so the "evidence" only shows that listeners were able to differentiate sounds within 1 dB. Quite easy for people with normal hearing.

So, either a) the interviewee/interviewer were not aware of the details of the test or b) the catchy title was only selected by the interviewer to advertise the benefits of cables via the backdoor.

Am I right, that these cables were all speaker cables?
the interaction between a speaker and the amp is a little complicated.
Certain speakers, drop their impedance to very low ohms at certain frequencies. Now if the amp's internal output impedance should be high enough ( above 1 ohm), then at these special circumstances, the damping factor (ability of the amp to control speaker cone) gets compromised should the speaker cable have a high impedance ( thin and long) - also the tonal signature of the system can alter.
Now we must understand, that this is a worse case scenario, amp and speaker bordering on sub-standard and Bad cable being used!
Now if the listeners could hear any difference (or measure anything) between the said Monster Cable and household wiring cable (in UK 32amp, solid core, cheap builders cable).
The speaker cable's inductive and capacitive values can cause more trouble than impedance, as most amps, take global feedback directly at speaker terminals.
Bottom line:
don't cheap out by using bell wire, nor work with long lengths of wire.
Keep it real and short, then a £1/m cable is as good as any diamond encrusted, vacuum packed thick silver cable at £1000/m.

 

[playmusic]

Am I right, that these cables were all speaker cables?
the interaction between a speaker and the amp is a little complicated.

Yes, indeed. Good point to mention this.

Also for headphones, impadance can vary across the frequency spectrum, e.g. for a Sennheiser HD 650 from 500 Ohm at 100 Hz to 300 Ohm at 1000 Hz. (Innerfidelity measurement)
As you pointed out, output impedance and cable impedance impact the frequency respones.
This effect was also mentioned in the article.

Out of the 6 DBT, they matched levels in only one test. And this only within 1 dB.
The article states an expected difference in level of 1-2 dB between 24-gauge and the monster cable.
So, the test would quite likely show an audible difference between the cables in DBT.

Still, only for pink noise and unmatched levels, a psychoacoustically significant (p.s.) difference (> 75% hits) was observed between 24-gauge and 16-gauge resp. monster cable.
No p.s. difference was observed for choral music or matched levels.

Technically, the interviewee in the video is correct in citing the test that cables make a difference.
But if the obviously required level matching is applied, the test does not show it.

The speaker cable's inductive and capacitive values can cause more trouble than impedance, as most amps, take global feedback directly at speaker terminals.

I wish I had a better electronics knowledge to understand this argument. Nevermind, I will read up on this when I have some spare time.

Keep it real and short, then a £1/m cable is as good as any diamond encrusted, vacuum packed thick silver cable at £1000/m.

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Kentajalli]

Yes, indeed. Good point to mention this.

Also for headphones, impadance can vary across the frequency spectrum, e.g. for a Sennheiser HD 650 from 500 Ohm at 100 Hz to 300 Ohm at 1000 Hz. (Innerfidelity measurement)

Actually, that argument is only valid, when impedances get close to each other, meaning the output impedance of the amp, the cable and the varying impedances of speaker/headphone.
Most headphone amps have output impedances of around 1 ohm or less (decent ones), so a headphone impedance of few hundred ohms, makes no difference at all.
Even few 10s of ohms do not make an audible change.
But when it comes to speakers and dipping impedances of 3 or 4 ohms together with 10 feet of cable, dodgy binding posts then it all starts to interact!

 

[bigshot]

Impedance has nothing to do with the quality of a cable. It's choosing the right cable for the purpose. You wouldn't try to play an LP with a steel needle designed to play 78s. And if you did and the LP sounded horrible and shredded into bits of plastic, that wouldn't mean that there was something wrong with the steel needle.

It's assumed that you are using the right wire for the job. If you are doing that, it doesn't matter if it's a cheap wire or an expensive wire. None will perform any better than any other. If you use the wrong wire, of course the sound will be degraded. No one argues with that.

It really isn't hard to pick the right cable for the job. You go to Amazon and search for their Amazon Basics line. You find the interconnect that works by reading the description. Boom! Perfection.

 

[playmusic]

Actually, that argument is only valid, when impedances get close to each other, meaning the output impedance of the amp, the cable and the varying impedances of speaker/headphone.

Thank you for careful reading. You are correct.
The impact of cables is larger for speakers than for headphones.

An adequate example for a headphone would be the Campfire Audio Andromeda Gold.
Its impedance varies between 3 Ohm @ 100 Hz and 12 Ohm @ 15 kHz.
If the output impedance of the amp is close to zero then a 1 Ohm cable would change the relation of the frequency responses @ 100 Hz and 15 kHz by ca. 1.8 dB which should be audible.

The impedance behaviour of this specific IEM is rather unusual.
For most headphones and cable combinations, the effect is closer to 0.1 dB.
So, cables for headphones are a non-issue for me, I just take whatever cable comes with the headphone.

The output impedance can have a larger effect, so a close to zero Ohm amp would be my choice, too.

 

[castleofargh]

Thank you for careful reading. You are correct.
The impact of cables is larger for speakers than for headphones.

An adequate example for a headphone would be the Campfire Audio Andromeda Gold.
Its impedance varies between 3 Ohm @ 100 Hz and 12 Ohm @ 15 kHz.
If the output impedance of the amp is close to zero then a 1 Ohm cable would change the relation of the frequency responses @ 100 Hz and 15 kHz by ca. 1.8 dB which should be audible.

The impedance behaviour of this specific IEM is rather unusual.
For most headphones and cable combinations, the effect is closer to 0.1 dB.
So, cables for headphones are a non-issue for me, I just take whatever cable comes with the headphone.

The output impedance can have a larger effect, so a close to zero Ohm amp would be my choice, too.

The general idea is correct, and increasing the cable's impedance would make the 12ohm area go up in dB by some amount relatively to the 3ohm frequency region. But even imagining a near zero ohm amp(not typical for portable gears), we deal with variations between 2 cables, so it's not 0ohm VS 1ohm. It's more likely to be at least 0.5ohm or more(of the other cable) VS the 1ohm in your example.

 

[ocramida]

These sorts of discussions give me a headache. Pretty much a battle you cannot won because based on emotion and intangibles. Not to mention humans are not exact physiological duplicates. Imo

 

[bigshot]

These sorts of discussions give me a headache. Pretty much a battle you cannot won because based on emotion and intangibles. Not to mention humans are not exact physiological duplicates. Imo

That's exactly why level matched, direct A/B switched, blind tests are so useful!

 

[Kentajalli]

The general idea is correct, and increasing the cable's impedance would make the 12ohm area go up in dB by some amount relatively to the 3ohm frequency region. But even imagining a near zero ohm amp(not typical for portable gears), we deal with variations between 2 cables, so it's not 0ohm VS 1ohm. It's more likely to be at least 0.5ohm or more(of the other cable) VS the 1ohm in your example.

well a zero ohm output impedance would make the amp a theoretical "voltage amplifier" , such an amp would be immune to any variations in load impedance, be it the cable or the transducer (speaker, earphones etc.).
problem arises when the amp's output impedance is higher!
when amp's output impedance gets close to load impedance, things inter react. let us not forget contact impedance at socket and jack. It can be higher than cable impedance sometimes.