[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eucariote /img/forum/go_quote.gif My work does - and none of what you're saying rings true. Yes, there are cases where results have been falsified, and researchers have been unduly influenced by consulting money (e.g. from pharmaceuticals). And that only emphasizes why people do need to be truly blind when they conduct tests and how the process is corrupted when research standards are violated. People also mis- and over-interpret their results. And the beauty of hypothesis testing is that such conjecture can be directly falsified once better hypotheses and experiments are developed from accumulating knowledge. Through this method, collective knowledge is continually corrected and refined and is accumulating in this way at an explosive pace. For example, in my field (neuroscience) more has been learned about the brain in the last 10 years than was learned in the previous 50 years. But the techniques and mathematics underlying hypothesis testing are remarkably stable.

The devil is in the details as you say. The basic fundamentals are as you say remarkably stable. It's one thing to know a basic principle. It's entirely another to implement that principle and use it effectively.

There's another big influence that invalidates results, or even moreso, affects the interpretation of those results, i.e., personal bias, whatever the reason for it. It can also be just plain errors in implementation and overlooking important confounders. It's not always only about the money.

 

[BIG POPPA]

Nick I know were you stand on the issue. We have talked about this before. OK on the crummy issue for example. If you are using a computer with some Dennon d2000 and maybe a fiios amp or something similar are cables really going to help you? You have bigger issues to deal with. If you use a step up/down transformer is a power cable going to be very beneficial?
To me this is a hobby, not a science project. Probably never try things in a controlled environment. What really is the benefit when I want to purchase something now? I listen to my rig about 4 hours a day, everyday. I know what my rig can and can't do.
With different metals, What is the difference between Silver, SPC, Gold, Rhodium, Copper, and Brass? They all have qualities, they all have weaknesses? Who else has listened to a the different metals? With my tube amp I prefer Rhodium IC's with 16AWG SPC, With my CD player I prefer Gold plated IEC's with 14AWG copper wire. Why is that? Trial and error?
Yes I go to demonstrations, some may discount them, but it is good to see somebody else opinion's how cables should work? It is part of learning. I am a doer in this hobby. No one that just waits on the side lines for something to happen. I go to meets, like them so much I organize them in the Seattle area. Have tried several pieces of the equipment. in the last few years. To me it is just difficult to believe cables don't make a difference. It just depends on how much time you listen to your rig and if your rig would honestly benefit from them?

 

[waterlogic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif To me it is just difficult to believe cables don't make a difference. It just depends on how much time you listen to your rig and if your rig would honestly benefit from them?

From your standpoint it must be also very difficult to believe that many people die of hunger, since you have no such problem. But the truth is they do die, every minute.
You live in a world of your own, obviously you work on your own belief system most of the time.
And it is evident you owe a very strong belief regarding cables (metals) make difference, you disqualify people who do not have good enough equipment and who do not spend enough money hence "will never be able to find the truth" as you had. Do you really believe that seeking to improve your rig endlessly is what makes this hobby interesting. There are many people outthere who prefer listening to music than spending their money and time on nonsense.
Imagine a top violinist upgrading his Stradivari violin every day (for Stradivari is also not perfect, as nothing is in this world).
Pretending to know the paths to perfection is kidding yourself - if this is what your hobby is - you are never enjoying music, do you ?

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Originally Posted by waterlogic /img/forum/go_quote.gif Imagine a top violinist upgrading his Stradivari violin every day (for Stradivari is also not perfect, as nothing is in this world). Pretending to know the paths to perfection is kidding yourself - if this is what your hobby is - you are never enjoying music, do you ?

Not even upgrading his violin, more akin to upgrading the resin he puts on the strings. Relative to the headphones, amp, and DAC, I hope even cable believers have to admit that cables are a minor upgrade. The headphones are like the violin, the amp the strings, the DAC the bow. Just figuratively, because I don't know what kind of difference strings or bows make with a violin.

 

[BIG POPPA]

Cables are do not make a difference like headphones ,sources or amps; but you need them to listen to music.
I enjoy music alot. I pick new music usually once a week. I like tweeking my rig. Like rolling cables, tubes, fuses. To me this hobby is fun not being a science project.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by waterlogic /img/forum/go_quote.gif From your standpoint it must be also very difficult to believe that many people die of hunger, since you have no such problem. But the truth is they do die, every minute.

That's quite an unfair statement. We all know that we're lucky not to suffer from hunger and for being able to enjoy the luxury of listening to music and perfectioning our playback systems. We all live in our own world!
Quote:

Imagine a top violinist upgrading his Stradivari violin every day (for Stradivari is also not perfect, as nothing is in this world). Pretending to know the paths to perfection is kidding yourself - if this is what your hobby is - you are never enjoying music, do you ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Head Injury /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not even upgrading his violin, more akin to upgrading the resin he puts on the strings. Relative to the headphones, amp, and DAC, I hope even cable believers have to admit that cables are a minor upgrade. The headphones are like the violin, the amp the strings, the DAC the bow. Just figuratively, because I don't know what kind of difference strings or bows make with a violin.

Yes, bow, strings and colophony have an impact on the sound and the playability. But a musical instrument isn't meant to ever sound «perfect», since there's no paradigm for such a sonic ideal. In contrast to a system for music reproduction. There the degree of perfection is measurable (in the form of linearity, absence of noise and distortion) and perceptible. And to some even cables contribute to the perfection. Perfectioning the sonic performance of a playback system is part of the hobby called high-fidelity. – Now it's your turn to value «the music» higher than sound and system listening...

.

 

[waterlogic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif We all live in our own world! Yes, bow, strings and colophony have an impact on the sound and the playability. But a musical instrument isn't meant to ever sound «perfect», since there's no paradigm for such a sonic ideal. In contrast to a system for music reproduction. There the degree of perfection is measurable (in the form of linearity, absence of noise and distortion) and perceptible. And to some even cables contribute to the perfection. Perfectioning the sonic performance of a playback system is part of the hobby called high-fidelity. – Now it's your turn to value «the music» higher than sound and system listening... .

If you do live in your own world, you do not need science, nor this forum, nor talking to me ?

But still you are in this forum talking to people. I would say you want to share your world with others and for that you need to find common ground. Lets say one such is an affection for music. You might convince some people of the importance of quality of reproduction but the moment you deviate to fiction, you can not convince me.

At the present state of technology regarding music reproduction I think it is mostly unethical to intrigue people that there is a lot of space of improvement especially when it is involving spending insane amounts of money. Cables are such a sticking-out issue.

The only critical issue for good sound are good speakers . All blabery of "system synergy" is blown out of proportion. The same good speakers can be driven by several kilo $ Krells or a well designed kilo $ vintage Bedini, no problem. What cables are in between is negligeable.
My point being - nobody wants to tear your world apart - but it can not be accepted if you try to mislead people using shaky arguments based on fiction to drag them in to spending ridiculous amounts of money.
So, science is necessary for anyone who wants to know the facts.

 

[d.g]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif Cables are do not make a difference like headphones ,sources or amps; but you need them to listen to music.

Shouldn't that be "You need them to make an electrical connection in order to listen to music" ?

A cable is a transmission device for an electrical signal, once a suitable conductor of adequate size has been chosen you should not need to specify different materials to change how a source component sounds, if the connection is good enough, the cable becomes a fit and forget item, it just does a job.

 

[BIG POPPA]

It is not Science it is synergy when it comes to audio. Where does science come in when you have 2000.00 dollars burning a hole in your pocket in the audio store.

 

[BIG POPPA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by d.g /img/forum/go_quote.gif Shouldn't that be "You need them to make an electrical connection in order to listen to music" ? A cable is a transmission device for an electrical signal, once a suitable conductor of adequate size has been chosen you should not need to specify different materials to change how a source component sounds, if the connection is good enough, the cable becomes a fit and forget item, it just does a job.

If they are good enough for you great? For me I like to tweek the sound of my rig. Have the means to do so at my leisure. It is just a hobby Right?

 

[bdr529]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is not Science it is synergy when it comes to audio. Where does science come in when you have 2000.00 dollars burning a hole in your pocket in the audio store.

marketing science

 

[eucariote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif The devil is in the details as you say. The basic fundamentals are as you say remarkably stable. It's one thing to know a basic principle. It's entirely another to implement that principle and use it effectively. There's another big influence that invalidates results, or even moreso, affects the interpretation of those results, i.e., personal bias, whatever the reason for it. It can also be just plain errors in implementation and overlooking important confounders.

Absolutely. That's what the peer-review process is for. Every scientific manuscript published in a reputable journal is reviewed by 3-4 scientists who are experts in the particular area of that paper, statistics and experimental methodology. And more than half of papers are rejected. The rest are allowed through after sometimes extensive changes in technique, analysis and interpretation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not always only about the money.

?? The goal is discovery and (in probably 1/3 of labs in North America) to advance public health. i.e. to eventually discover treatments and molecules that really are effective at keeping you alive/lucid/mobile longer without harming you.

That's how guesswork, opinions and unfounded speculation almost never see the light of day in matters of scientific importance.

 

[BIG POPPA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdr529 /img/forum/go_quote.gif marketing science

Marketing science? I'm in the financial sector for profession. What is the simple way for us hobbyist to upgrade our rigs?

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by waterlogic /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you do live in your own world, you do not need science, nor this forum, nor talking to me?

The emphasis was on «we», not «I» – I was addressing the fact that we live in a part of the world characterized by opulence and are partly blind for the livelihood problems in other parts.

Quote:

My point being - nobody wants to tear your world apart - but it can not be accepted if you try to mislead people using shaky arguments based on fiction to drag them in to spending ridiculous amounts of money.

Well, you have to accept my shaky arguments as they are. We live in a free world and communicate through an uncensured forum. Your world view obviously differs from mine, but I can easily accept your statements nonetheless – as statements of yours. I reject your anxious moralism, though.

Quote:

So, science is necessary for anyone who wants to know the facts.

You may not know it, but there are «facts» beyond science, if there is such a thing like certainty at all. However, the scientific facts you're speaking of are none. Cables are still allowed to alter the sound without violating any physical law.
.

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif Marketing science? I'm in the financial sector for profession. What is the simple way for us hobbyist to upgrade our rigs?

Buy something that makes a difference, but one backed by scientific measurement. That's simple, right? Ultimately you must always use your ears, but use your eyes first. If a graph says two components perform the same, it's a waste of time trying to hear a difference (and a waste of money if your mind tricks you into actually hearing one).

As what JaZZ says, if the purpose of musical reproduction is linearity and a lack of distortion and noise, buy what is most linear and has the lowest distortion and noise. Show me a cable that has measurably and audibly lower distortion and noise and I will make effort to become a believer (once I run out of headphones to upgrade to, anyway). Specifically, better than my Blue Jeans. I'm not talking ratty cheapo cables that may well have something wrong with them.

Of course, I can argue that it's not all about those three things. Grados are far from the end-all in any of them, but I still love them because of their colored response. If you like your cables even though they sound the same physically, alright. I just wouldn't be comfortable knowing I paid money for nothing real.