Not really. Hifiman has a pricing strategy in line with their rapid revision strategy. Their periodic steep discounts on certain headphones means that they undercut the used market (so they can keep moving new stock), and it means they avoid competing with themselves so that they can keep pumping out new revisions of old models. And consumers benefit. Seems like a win-win to me.Price devaluation is one of the reasons I don’t immediately buy anything HifiMan. You have something like the Ananda at 900 bucks becoming 399 on a sale for a couple months. That means they are ripping you off the other months of the year. The only HP stuck on high price is Susvara but that’s because their high price is driven by head-fier, ironically enough. The closer to Chinese new year it is the lower the price will be.
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Hifiman Sundara (HE400i upgraded, around $500)
- Thread starter mtoc
- Start date
drummerman1
500+ Head-Fier
Not if you buy one of their HP's only to find out it costs a fifth a few months later (with no obvious or official successor).Not really. Hifiman has a pricing strategy in line with their rapid revision strategy. Their periodic steep discounts on certain headphones means that they undercut the used market (so they can keep moving new stock), and it means they avoid competing with themselves so that they can keep pumping out new revisions of old models. And consumers benefit. Seems like a win-win to me.
Then don’t buy them? I don’t understand the issue. If you don’t think something (especially a luxury item) is worth what it costs…Not if you buy one of their HP's only to find out it costs a fifth a few months later (with no obvious or official successor).
Cat Whisperer Bob
100+ Head-Fier
Hi drummerman1, I understand and appreciate the dilemma that the resale value of something you are purchasing now is going to decrease in the near future. However IMO that’s a good thing. High end headphone prices are coming down to where they should be due to the popularity and volume. You buy a set now for $299 and in 6 months it’s $239 or whatever. Over that 6 months though you got to use the product as opposed to not having them, and the price of upgrading which we all do has also come down. So in all it’s a better scene all around.Not if you buy one of their HP's only to find out it costs a fifth a few months later (with no obvious or official successor).
Has anyone seen a 'silver' version of Sundara? I've seen some announcements a year ago, but no one is selling them??
psy472
500+ Head-Fier
Your comparison isn’t what I’m talking about. You quote a 10% decrease which is industry standard, but we are seeing up to 80% off. That massive devaluation means the original cost is dirt cheap and we were price gouged.Hi drummerman1, I understand and appreciate the dilemma that the resale value of something you are purchasing now is going to decrease in the near future. However IMO that’s a good thing. High end headphone prices are coming down to where they should be due to the popularity and volume. You buy a set now for $299 and in 6 months it’s $239 or whatever. Over that 6 months though you got to use the product as opposed to not having them, and the price of upgrading which we all do has also come down. So in all it’s a better scene all around.
Your comparison isn’t what I’m talking about. You quote a 10% decrease which is industry standard, but we are seeing up to 80% off. That massive devaluation means the original cost is dirt cheap and we were price gouged.
It's all metal, magnets, plastic and cloth/leather. You think any headphone price is equal to the cost of materials and labor? No company would make a profit if they did that.
The price reductions are typically due to lack of sales. A reduced profit is still better than no profit.
Sennheiser recently dropped their new 660S2 to $399 from the $599 MSRP. That might have been aligned with end of year/Black Friday/typical consumer holiday spending trends. Then they raised the price of the 660S2 back up to $599 MSRP. End of year/Black Friday/typical consumer holiday spending is over. Are you going to slam Sennheiser for doing that?
psy472
500+ Head-Fier
Again your examples are only low to moderate reduction in price and it was after years not months of release. The point is slow reduction in price to provide assurance that what we buy won’t be considered trash the next day.
Cost itself isn’t the problem. Even the susvara only cost a bit less than one of my watches. But I buy things with perceived value and not soon to perceived recycle materials.
Cost itself isn’t the problem. Even the susvara only cost a bit less than one of my watches. But I buy things with perceived value and not soon to perceived recycle materials.
Cat Whisperer Bob
100+ Head-Fier
I know Hifiman introduced some new models this past year that were not well reviewed. Particularly the closed back styles have not done well. The dramatic price reduction is unfortunate but the 80% off you note is not typical for them. It’s likely they’re stuck with a lot of inventory and the original sell price was way off from reality. I’m sure it’s happened to all of us at some point and it sucks, but stuff happens and I hope you enjoy them if you don’t intend to sell.Again your examples are only low to moderate reduction in price and it was after years not months of release. The point is slow reduction in price to provide assurance that what we buy won’t be considered trash the next day.
Cost itself isn’t the problem. Even the susvara only cost a bit less than one of my watches. But I buy things with perceived value and not soon to perceived recycle materials.
Complaining about big price drops in hifi is like complaining about free food at a fancy dinner party. These are luxury goods, not necessities.Your comparison isn’t what I’m talking about. You quote a 10% decrease which is industry standard, but we are seeing up to 80% off. That massive devaluation means the original cost is dirt cheap and we were price gouged.
Again, if you don’t think something is worth what it costs, then don’t buy it. It’s a non-issue.
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gonzalo1004es
100+ Head-Fier
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I bought one and sold it right after receiving them, way too different than the standard one, I was expecting a subtle difference but it wasn’t, at least in my opinion.Has anyone seen a 'silver' version of Sundara? I've seen some announcements a year ago, but no one is selling them??
Sword of Damocles
100+ Head-Fier
Sundara Silver is currently sold only in Europe, as it was developed to fit European taste, whatever that means. Few listener groups in France (maybe included some other countries as well) gave Hifiman feedback and some fine tuning was made based on that.Has anyone seen a 'silver' version of Sundara? I've seen some announcements a year ago, but no one is selling them??
I heard that Silver model was actually supposed to be called Sundara Pro or Sundara 2, but Hifiman then decided to offer it for Europeans as a new option between normal Sundara and Ananda. The driver in Silver version actually shares some parts with Ananda, but I don't have any details.
For me Sundara Silver sounds more spacious than before and it is a bit brighter but also smoother. It also has more present mids, such as vocals. You could say that it gets closer to Sennheiser HD 600 series than before. Lastly, the bass is a bit leaner, but more dynamic. Overall, the sound is quite different and I find it both clearer and more fun compared to normal Sundara. For some, the treble might be a bit too much though. Sundara Silver, Ananda Nano ja Arya Organic share some similarities compared to older Hifiman models. It is interesting to see if Sundara Silver becomes more widely available in the future.
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tigon_ridge
1000+ Head-Fier
Time to revisit my review from many moons ago.
I wrote that I'm often hesitant to start listening to music through my Sundara +Crown XLS 1502 combo because once I start, I literally find it very hard to stop. I wasn't exaggerating. It is still true to this day. I often find myself staring at my playlist just contemplating whether I should play a song, or go do something else. It's actually quite a bit nerve-wracking, because I know there's no going back... Once the music begins, it is decided—the next hour, or two, or three so will be delegated to sgetting lost in my music collection. I'd forget to eat.
For the love of all that is good and holy, please, I implore anyone who owns a Sundara...please don't pass judgment on your Sundara until you've fed it with a powerful speaker amp through speaker outputs.
To re-elaborate on my experience with this combo for the past two years:
Vocals are always articulate, and never feel like they're far in the mix. It's intimate, but just a touch less so than the HD600. The midrange is tactile/textured/full, large/enveloping, and crystal clear without being the least bit dry or analytical. Highs are smooooth, and only sibiliant when recordings are sibilant post-EQ. Mid-to-upper bass is also warm, full-bodied, present and detailed, but stays in its lane within the mix. The bouble bass, for example, sounds very round and enveloping. There is detail resolution for days throughout the entire spectrum.
Bass transients not only achieve hard impacts, but the notes are also sustained, giving them fullness and tactility. I keep going back to my favorite bass test tracks Infected Mushroom - Spitfire, and Lordy when the bass transients kick, momentarily pulling 8+ Watts/ch, the adrenaline rush is real! The entire driver assembly vibrates, and with a perfect seal I feel the pressure and vacuum sensation of the diaphragms pressing/pulling against my head in the frequencies below 50hz. I believe it was around this same amount of power that fried my HE-6se v1, where the 6se didn't even achieve half the amount of rumble. The Sundara is a tank in this regard. I haven't felt the desire to push beyond 8 watts, however. It's around this point that distortion becomes audibly significant. Note: this is a transient attack, not a steady signal. I don't know whether the latter would damage the drivers, but there's really no point in testing it, either.
Instruments/vocals are effortlessly separated, with so much space between them. Imaging is 3D, layered, tall, intimate, yet also grand and enveloping.
Spatial cues are rendered effortlessly. I was listening to William Murdock's reviews of his various headphone gear, and I felt like he was sitting right in front of me—like I could reach out and touch him—because I could not only hear him, but also picture the shape and size of his room. It's almost a binaural experience. I listen to a lot of podcasts through this setup, and somewhat prefer the mics positioned far away from the speakers, as I much enjoy the ability to sense the studio space.
As @ardilla wrote in his review, the thing scales up profoundly with speaker amps, which are much more capable of providing the current control these planars love. There is much unexplored territory as to what are the best amps for these headphones, as there are many speaker amps, but very few individuals willing to go to such extents to explore their humble Sundara. I honestly can't imagine it getting any better than my current setup, so I haven't bought any new gear. This to me is levels above the Sundara + Asgard2/Mjolnir/THX789/Vali2. It's night and day level of difference. Someday, I may give the fabled HE-500 a listen through this amp, to compare.
I wrote that I'm often hesitant to start listening to music through my Sundara +Crown XLS 1502 combo because once I start, I literally find it very hard to stop. I wasn't exaggerating. It is still true to this day. I often find myself staring at my playlist just contemplating whether I should play a song, or go do something else. It's actually quite a bit nerve-wracking, because I know there's no going back... Once the music begins, it is decided—the next hour, or two, or three so will be delegated to sgetting lost in my music collection. I'd forget to eat.
For the love of all that is good and holy, please, I implore anyone who owns a Sundara...please don't pass judgment on your Sundara until you've fed it with a powerful speaker amp through speaker outputs.
To re-elaborate on my experience with this combo for the past two years:
Vocals are always articulate, and never feel like they're far in the mix. It's intimate, but just a touch less so than the HD600. The midrange is tactile/textured/full, large/enveloping, and crystal clear without being the least bit dry or analytical. Highs are smooooth, and only sibiliant when recordings are sibilant post-EQ. Mid-to-upper bass is also warm, full-bodied, present and detailed, but stays in its lane within the mix. The bouble bass, for example, sounds very round and enveloping. There is detail resolution for days throughout the entire spectrum.
Bass transients not only achieve hard impacts, but the notes are also sustained, giving them fullness and tactility. I keep going back to my favorite bass test tracks Infected Mushroom - Spitfire, and Lordy when the bass transients kick, momentarily pulling 8+ Watts/ch, the adrenaline rush is real! The entire driver assembly vibrates, and with a perfect seal I feel the pressure and vacuum sensation of the diaphragms pressing/pulling against my head in the frequencies below 50hz. I believe it was around this same amount of power that fried my HE-6se v1, where the 6se didn't even achieve half the amount of rumble. The Sundara is a tank in this regard. I haven't felt the desire to push beyond 8 watts, however. It's around this point that distortion becomes audibly significant. Note: this is a transient attack, not a steady signal. I don't know whether the latter would damage the drivers, but there's really no point in testing it, either.
Instruments/vocals are effortlessly separated, with so much space between them. Imaging is 3D, layered, tall, intimate, yet also grand and enveloping.
Spatial cues are rendered effortlessly. I was listening to William Murdock's reviews of his various headphone gear, and I felt like he was sitting right in front of me—like I could reach out and touch him—because I could not only hear him, but also picture the shape and size of his room. It's almost a binaural experience. I listen to a lot of podcasts through this setup, and somewhat prefer the mics positioned far away from the speakers, as I much enjoy the ability to sense the studio space.
As @ardilla wrote in his review, the thing scales up profoundly with speaker amps, which are much more capable of providing the current control these planars love. There is much unexplored territory as to what are the best amps for these headphones, as there are many speaker amps, but very few individuals willing to go to such extents to explore their humble Sundara. I honestly can't imagine it getting any better than my current setup, so I haven't bought any new gear. This to me is levels above the Sundara + Asgard2/Mjolnir/THX789/Vali2. It's night and day level of difference. Someday, I may give the fabled HE-500 a listen through this amp, to compare.
HWB3
1000+ Head-Fier
That was quite a passionate post. I have an Emotiva BasX A-100 that I use with my Sundara's. I can get it up to about three o'clock and that's loud enough for me. My amp has a design where I can put a jumper across the resistor that lowers the volume going to the headphone jack and get the full power that goes to the speakers. Never felt that I needed to do that put you make for an interesting reason to try it.
tigon_ridge
1000+ Head-Fier
Don't have experience with the A-100, but my recommendation is to go even further if you can. Try something that could output 300+ wpc into 4 ohms.That was quite a passionate post. I have an Emotiva BasX A-100 that I use with my Sundara's. I can get it up to about three o'clock and that's loud enough for me. My amp has a design where I can put a jumper across the resistor that lowers the volume going to the headphone jack and get the full power that goes to the speakers. Never felt that I needed to do that put you make for an interesting reason to try it.
Take extra precautions if your amp is class A, B, or AB. You can easily destroy headphones with these amps, though planars are less susceptible than dynamics. Unplug headphones before turning off the amp, and plug in after a few seconds of power on. Don't have to do with that with my XLS, though. It's less worrisome than the Schitt amps I used to pair with my old Hifimans, because their pops were pretty loud. No pops here.
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