[ClieOS]

Quote:

ClieOS, with that in mind then, since you say the bass quantity on both the IEMs is similar, is it that the mids of the GR07 are recessed (short of neutral), or that the RE-400 mids are forward (a bit more than neutral)? 

 
Both. I don't think there is very clear cut way to say which is more neutral. It is more like 'neutral yet a little forward' vs. 'neutral yet a little recessed'. They are all relative to each other and the difference is noticeable but subtle.

 

[AstralStorm]

Oh, that VSonic "parent company" is actually some fancy chinese manufacturer group which is rumored to have some problems.
 
Now about treble hotness in GR07 - it's more of the "slightly annoying peak" (@ 6kHz, minor but ringy) kind rather than "too much in general". RE-400 is somewhat laid back in treble in stock configuration - "too little in general", but by removing the damper this can be improved. Also makes the soundstage wider.
Similarly VSonic's bass can be tamed a bit by reducing the vent, but nothing sans opening the shell seemed to drop the 6k peak and resonance.
 
I'd rather call GR07's mids bit recessed - especially around 1-2kHz. They're not forward at all.

 

[Berkovajazz]

What is your favourite tips?
I was using 2flange stock and was having good bass and mids, with some 1flange tips i have much better treble and not a good bass. Want to try something from another phones. All stock tips are not perfect for my big ears.

 

[AstralStorm]

RE-272 long biflanges (the ones with space between the flanges), no contest, not even from Comply Ts400.

 

[shotgunshane]

Both the re400 and gr07 are measured with a similar dip centering at about 3k give or take. Both about -5 db. The dip just starts a hair sooner on the gr07. As ClieOS stated they both are pretty similar from bass through mid. Treble presence is the main difference in FR.

 

[conquerator2]

Does the RE-400 benefit noticeably from amping?
Since I have sold my E11 I have no portable amp at ,my disposal atm an since I really love the Hifiman house sound RE-400 seemed like a good HP to go along the HE-6, but for traveling use of course.
I might get something like the E12 or C&C BH in the future though but for now its straight off my phone.
Is it okay?
Thanks, Luke
 
EDIT - Awesome write-up by the way. Excellent work

 

[Deni5]

Looking at just measurements can't give you the complete picture. They might give you a good hint on what sound signature something may have but still. For example I can't see Rin's measurements giving information on how it handles square waves as Innerfidelity does with 30 Hz and 300 Hz. Looking at the Etymotic ER4PT frequency response one might think that it looks perfect in regard to bass - but when you see the 30 Hz / 300 Hz square waves you get another picture.

Measurements can't always provide information on the quality of the sound - how is the bass like? is it boomy, is it tight, is it punchy, how is it in regards to mids/treble? Same goes with mids and treble. Is some parts of the sound much more elevated / or laid back than others that the balance might be totally off?

One cannot always want more of something that is missing. Sometimes designers tone down a frequency range on purpose because it might distort at some frequencies which is not good. You don't want to elevate the bad parts as it will be a disaster distortion wise and on the total enjoyment of sound.

There are many parts in the design that has to work in symbiose, this is probably the hardest part in designing. Why would Hifiman choose an odd value of 8.5mm as driver size, when many use 9mm (GR07 MkII uses 11mm)? I don't think this is a coincidence, something that has been randomly chosen, but it surely has a purpose. Maybe to keep distortion down or speed wise - who knows. I believe a lot of research has been made and it shows on how it sounds in the case with RE-400. This is the entry level of the new RE-line so they can't give it their absolute best at first maybe, but they set the standard so high it might be a little harder to justify the big price jump to the next model (but I do believe it can be done). There was also talk about a third model. Something in between would be interesting - they can do lots of things with the new driver, it is very capable imo.
 

 

[Techno Kid]

Quote:

Looking at just measurements can't give you the complete picture. They might give you a good hint on what sound signature something may have but still. For example I can't see Rin's measurements giving information on how it handles square waves as Innerfidelity does with 30 Hz and 300 Hz. Looking at the Etymotic ER4PT frequency response one might think that it looks perfect in regard to bass - but when you see the 30 Hz / 300 Hz square waves you get another picture.

Measurements can't always provide information on the quality of the sound - how is the bass like? is it boomy, is it tight, is it punchy, how is it in regards to mids/treble? Same goes with mids and treble. Is some parts of the sound much more elevated / or laid back than others that the balance might be totally off?

One cannot always want more of something that is missing. Sometimes designers tone down a frequency range on purpose because it might distort at some frequencies which is not good. You don't want to elevate the bad parts as it will be a disaster distortion wise and on the total enjoyment of sound.

There are many parts in the design that has to work in symbiose, this is probably the hardest part in designing. Why would Hifiman choose an odd value of 8.5mm as driver size, when many use 9mm (GR07 MkII uses 11mm)? I don't think this is a coincidence, something that has been randomly chosen, but it surely has a purpose. Maybe to keep distortion down or speed wise - who knows. I believe a lot of research has been made and it shows on how it sounds in the case with RE-400. This is the entry level of the new RE-line so they can't give it their absolute best at first maybe, but they set the standard so high it might be a little harder to justify the big price jump to the next model (but I do believe it can be done). There was also talk about a third model. Something in between would be interesting - they can do lots of things with the new driver, it is very capable imo.
 

 
 
That's really all they do, well plus you can see how much bass or highs they have and things like that but you wont know if they sound good from just measurements.  I've seen people that think you can tell if they will sound bad from measurements but that's not true at all, I've seen some measurements that looked crazy strange and the IEM sounded great.  I don't put much stock in them but only to see what signature thay might have, for me its all about the ears test.

 

[Inks]

Deni, square wave is one dimensional. Look at the low region CSD, way more detailed than a square wave. Measurements do tell you all the things you mentioned, very few things are left out

 

[Deni5]

How could a decay plot give this information?
 
"The decrease in amplitude when a vibrating force has been removed is called decay. The actual time it takes for a sound to diminish to silence is the decay time. How gradual this sound decays is its rate of decay."

 

[Niyologist]

I'm wondering. How good is the RE-400? Is it as good as the Westone UM3X?

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

Oh, that VSonic "parent company" is actually some fancy chinese manufacturer group which is rumored to have some problems.
 

 
I'll like to know which company that is. I have been tracking VSONIC since 2007 when the last CEO was still on the job (the founder and current CEO's father) but I never heard of the existence  of a parent company.

 

[Inks]

How could a decay plot give this information?
 
"The decrease in amplitude when a vibrating force has been removed is called decay. The actual time it takes for a sound to diminish to silence is the decay time. How gradual this sound decays is its rate of decay."

Decay plot shows the frequency response in addition to the time-domain characteristics. Square waves attempt the same thing in a dumbed down, two dimensional approximation, it makes NO SENSE too correlate a single square wave to bass quality. 

 

[Deni5]

Quote:

Decay plot shows the frequency response in addition to the time-domain characteristics. Square waves attempt the same thing in a dumbed down, two dimensional approximation, it makes NO SENSE too correlate a single square wave to bass quality. 

 
If a source reproduces something that is almost/resembling a square wave then that points out something. The more exact the better, but in real world it is difficult to do this (or perhaps measure it that exact). Tyll has a very good explanation on this subject on Innerfidelity. Two dimensional data would not give any more information on how well a source could reproduce a square wave or whatever wave for that matter as I see it (doesn't need to be square, but it is supposed to be easier to see a difference in a square wave). Still I cannot see how a decay plot can describe how tight bass is or other characteristics. So imo it makes more sense than looking at a decay plot.

 

[Inks]

Quote:

If a source reproduces something that is almost/resembling a square wave then that points out something. The more exact the better, but in real world it is difficult to do this (or perhaps measure it that exact). Tyll has a very good explanation on this subject on Innerfidelity. Two dimensional data would not give any more information on how well a source could reproduce a square wave or whatever wave for that matter as I see it (doesn't need to be square, but it is supposed to be easier to see a difference in a square wave). Still I cannot see how a decay plot can describe how tight bass is or other characteristics. So imo it makes more sense than looking at a decay plot.

Simply put, one specific freq doesn't tell anything about nothing. Unless you do increments of 100hz for each bass region, which isn't done, that's why you look at CSD. Decay plot defintely shows how tight a bass is, see Rin's MH1C plot, easily shows a flabby bass, unless you're not familiar with how to interpret.