HifiMAN HE-6 Planar Magnetic Headphone
Sep 7, 2010 at 9:52 PM Post #256 of 21,868


Quote:
Unfortunately my amp was pretty much designed for the K1000 and powers them beautifully, yet somehow I felt that there was a little something missing from the sound of the HE-6.  Maybe it was underpowered at 10wpc, but maybe the sound signature just doesn't suit me as well as the LCD-2.
 
Also I have a problem with everybody saying to get a cheap speaker amp as a substitute to drive the HE-6.  In this hobby we strive to get good quality setups and amplification.  Many really cheap headphone amps can output just as much current as multi thousand dollar headphone amps and yet it doesn't mean they are anywhere as good.  The same mentality needs to be applied to speaker amps, where there are a million things more important than just the power output.

 

 

Larry has his best results with a mass market low end Yamaha 55wpc stereo receiver. This is why I make such a big deal about a low end speaker amp. Surely there is room to go up from there with regard to sound quality, but as this is an entirely new viewpoint for headphones I'd start cheap and see what results others have before forking over for a nice F1 for example.
 
I would hope that with refinement they are making it possible to use HE-6 on an amp like yours and be able to get the best out of it. It is a bit ridiculous that a 10W quality amp can't run these effectively.
 
 
Sep 8, 2010 at 12:20 AM Post #257 of 21,868


Quote:
It is a bit ridiculous that a 10W quality amp can't run these effectively.
 


I agree.  However, Nankai said that the newer HE-6 will be more efficient, so we'll have to wait and see how much it changes.
 
Sep 8, 2010 at 12:26 AM Post #258 of 21,868


Quote:
I would hope that with refinement they are making it possible to use HE-6 on an amp like yours and be able to get the best out of it.
 





Quote:
I agree.  However, Nankai said that the newer HE-6 will be more efficient, so we'll have to wait and see how much it changes.


I just said that. Look up. ^^
bigsmile_face.gif

 
Sep 8, 2010 at 12:30 AM Post #259 of 21,868


Quote:
My WA5 is a 10W per channel amp, not 1.5W.  But that is great to hear the the final version will have improved efficiency!
 

 


WA5 can output 10w @ 8 or 4 ohm, not @ 60 ohm.
HE-6 prototype you listened to need 5 to 6 W @ 60 ohm.
 
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Sep 8, 2010 at 12:33 AM Post #260 of 21,868
Touche. Nankai with the 'technical' knock-out. I feel dumb not noticing the impedance difference.
 
So, Nankai, if we're looking at conventional speaker amps where should we be looking at with power ratings at 8 ohms?
 
Also is that correct 60 ohms? I'd read it was 70.
 
WA5 specs:
 

 
Sep 8, 2010 at 1:17 AM Post #262 of 21,868


Quote:
Unfortunately my amp was pretty much designed for the K1000 and powers them beautifully, yet somehow I felt that there was a little something missing from the sound of the HE-6.  Maybe it was underpowered at 10wpc, but maybe the sound signature just doesn't suit me as well as the LCD-2.
 
Also I have a problem with everybody saying to get a cheap speaker amp as a substitute to drive the HE-6.  In this hobby we strive to get good quality setups and amplification.  Many really cheap headphone amps can output just as much current as multi thousand dollar headphone amps and yet it doesn't mean they are anywhere as good.  The same mentality needs to be applied to speaker amps, where there are a million things more important than just the power output.


 
Quote:
Larry has his best results with a mass market low end Yamaha 55wpc stereo receiver. This is why I make such a big deal about a low end speaker amp. Surely there is room to go up from there with regard to sound quality, but as this is an entirely new viewpoint for headphones I'd start cheap and see what results others have before forking over for a nice F1 for example.
 
I would hope that with refinement they are making it possible to use HE-6 on an amp like yours and be able to get the best out of it. It is a bit ridiculous that a 10W quality amp can't run these effectively.
 

 
I believe the WA5 is slightly more powerful than my ZDT with 8-ohm speakers, but these headphones are higher impedance than that. The K1000 is 120 ohm and I think the HE-6 is about 50 ohm (I would have to search for the actual impedance).  So, I think Fang was implying that the WA5 only has 1.5 watts at the higher impedance of the HE-6.  My 8-watt ZDT has only 2 watts at 32 ohm, and only does a "decent" job with K1000 or HE-6.  
 
I brought my K1000 to CanJam '09 and RMAF '09, and both times my K1000 still sounded a little lackluster with the WA5, and similar to my ZDT.  So I am not surprised the WA5 didn't seem to be optimal with HE-6 either, since I felt it was on a similar level to my ZDT.  Note - my K1000 sounded very similar to Sherwood's pair, so I doubt it was a bad pair of phones.  My SAC KH1000 amp was better with K1000, although still not "fantastic" with them.  In a similar fashion, it seems these amps are not the best ones to use with HE-6 either, although the SAC amp seemed to give them both more drive and dynamics than these low power transformer coupled tube speaker amps.
 
Switching to my 55-watt $200 Yamaha receiver, the HE-6 were noticeably better in ALL areas - and despite using a budget 5.1 home theater amp their musical reproduction became effortless and dynamic, impactful, transparent, balanced, detailed, spacious and overall very impressive sounding.  Imaging was solid, and while soundstage not huge it was precise and not small at all.  With DSP turned on the soundstage did become huge, albeit a little too echoey.  
 
I'm pretty sure I would still pick the HE-6 over my old K1000 with these "headphone" amps, and the HE-6/SAC amp combo easily beat my Sennheiser HE-60/HEV70 amp for about the same price.  The K1000 had a bass quality that made them sound like I was listening to a concert from the hallway outside of the auditorium, and when I compared them to my HE-5 LE (with the grill clothe removed) the HE-5 LE had the same mids and treble, with better bass speed and detail, but at the expense of a smaller soundstage than K1000.  I finally sold the K1000 this summer after 1.5 years because I was too stupid to try them on my 55-watt Yamaha amp.  Thankfully I did try the HE-6 on it, or I might never have discovered just how good they can sound.  This means that someday I may give the K1000 another try on a more powerful amp like the Yamaha.  I had only used them on four or five different 5-12 watt amps, and I think that just wasn't enough.
 
I'm one of those people that likes a wide variety of sound signatures, and I own 6-7 phones that I consider my favorites but I don't want to rank my top picks first thru last.  I am certain that the HE-6 belongs on that list of favorites, along with my HD800, O2 Mk1, HE-60, Jade, LCD-2, and HE-5 LE (and maybe LA7000 and ESW10 although slower and less detailed than the above, they flow and immerse).  Phones I don't own that are also on my favorites list after auditioning them include the Stax Omega, HE-90, HP-1000 and Sony R10.
 
If you can't invest in more power, then maybe the HE-6 aren't the right choice; but with ample power on tap, even with modest quality gear the HE-6 can really shine.
 
Sep 8, 2010 at 1:31 AM Post #263 of 21,868


Quote:
 
if we're looking at conventional speaker amps where should we be looking at with power ratings at 8 ohms?
 

 
Theoretically, if output Voltage is constant, W1 is amp watt at 8 Ohm. W2 is amp output watt at 60 Ohm. 
Ohm's law:
W=U^2/R
U^2=W1R1=W2R2=constant
For a 50watt amp @ 8 Ohm
50*8= W2 *60
Only 6.7Watt @ 60 Ohm.
 
However, we only can use the calculation procedure to get an estimated value because
1) output voltage of a real amplifier is not constant.
2) Ohm's law is accurate when loading pure resistor. Speaker and headphones are not pure resistor.
 
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Sep 8, 2010 at 1:40 AM Post #264 of 21,868


Quote:
WA5 can output 10w @ 8 or 4 ohm, not @ 60 ohm.
HE-6 prototype you listened to need 5 to 6 W @ 60 ohm.

 
That's what I thought, and was saying the same thing in my long post above when you added that before I finished.
 
Quote:
Touche. Nankai with the 'technical' knock-out. I feel dumb not noticing the impedance difference.
 
So, Nankai, if we're looking at conventional speaker amps where should we be looking at with power ratings at 8 ohms?
 
Also is that correct 60 ohms? I'd read it was 70.
 
WA5 specs:
 


I would guess you'd want at least 30 watts at 8 ohms, minimum.  I never did need full power when I used them with my 55-watt amp, and it seemed like I had a lot of headroom left.  Again, I can't stress how much better the HE-6 sounded with my 55-watt Yamaha instead of the other 5-12 watt headphone/speaker amps that I paired them with, even though I didn't have to max it out at all.
 
Quote:
Well that's just ridiculous then.  I can run a pair of full sized Zu Druid speakers on my WA5 extremely well yet I can't properly run a pair of headphones.....

 
Well, then don't get the HE-6.  And, if you want to "properly" drive something like the Stax O2 you'll need another $2500 - $5000 amp that can't drive your K1000 (and no, a transformer off the WA5/ZDT is not good as a dedicated stat amp, been there done that).  
 
Sep 8, 2010 at 7:02 AM Post #265 of 21,868
If Fang formula is correct and I have no reason to believe it not you need a very powerful amp to drive them, Although the 40W NAD 316BEE sounded very good. My 1ooW 2150RR should make them purr. Skylab also noted they sounded best with the 100W Rotel he used. It just seems planars the more power you feed them the more better they sound. I would assume the same with the LCD2. It seems to me for both Planars SS is the way to go and the more power the better they will perform
 
Sep 8, 2010 at 7:13 AM Post #266 of 21,868
Agreed. Going tube at these power levels will make you broke.. quickly. Now I'm REALLY looking forward to tossing these on my 125W Pioneer.
 
One quick question to those who've heard these. Are these phones that sound their best at medium volume or are they like HD600/650 where you need to be at or near live levels to be at their peak? I'm hoping I can get something a little less loud, because while I love my HD600 setup, my ears get tired after a while of them at their best (fairly loud).
 
Sep 8, 2010 at 8:01 AM Post #267 of 21,868


Quote:
Agreed. Going tube at these power levels will make you broke.. quickly. Now I'm REALLY looking forward to tossing these on my 125W Pioneer.
 
One quick question to those who've heard these. Are these phones that sound their best at medium volume or are they like HD600/650 where you need to be at or near live levels to be at their peak? I'm hoping I can get something a little less loud, because while I love my HD600 setup, my ears get tired after a while of them at their best (fairly loud).


At low to medium on the NAD 316BEE which is also not a big amp. The problem is that most of the NAD are breaking if you check the audio asylum you willl see QC issues but it was a great match with the LCD2 and is only 349.00  The 6 is very good but I would be careful using too much volume or they will be damaged.
 
Sep 8, 2010 at 8:46 AM Post #268 of 21,868


Quote:
If Fang formula is correct and I have no reason to believe it not you need a very powerful amp to drive them, Although the 40W NAD 316BEE sounded very good. My 1ooW 2150RR should make them purr. Skylab also noted they sounded best with the 100W Rotel he used. It just seems planars the more power you feed them the more better they sound. I would assume the same with the LCD2. It seems to me for both Planars SS is the way to go and the more power the better they will perform


Indeed, the 100 wpc Rotel made the HE-6 sound best.  The Rotel, in addition to having lots of power, is a fine sounding power amplifier, and not some cheapie.  That said, I got quite good results with the 20 WPC "cheapie" T-Amp V2.
 
In any case, there are way more speaker amps than headphone amps - the "requirement" of a speaker amp should not be such a big deal if one likes the fundamental sound of the headphones (which, again, I did).  However, the use of a 100 wpc amp versus a 10 wpc will not, IME, radically change the sonic signature of the HE-6.
 
Sep 8, 2010 at 1:26 PM Post #269 of 21,868
When you guys mention pairing orthos with speaker amps, I suppose you're not referring to the headphone out?  If that's the case, do you have to cut open the headphone cable and connect it directly to the speaker outs?  I have a Pioneer receiver that I'm tempted to use with my HE-5LE, but I'd rather not modify my cable...
 

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