[cycloverid]

Are you quoting someone or is that your stance? I hated digital back in the days of TELARC vinyl (early 80's) and the explosion of CD's and cheap players from the mid 80's to the late 90's. Somebody (early 00's) sat me in front of two players - an Audio Research (ARC) and a Krell - and that was night and day to the low-fi crap - but the price - about $20k each was ridiculous. More 1 bit MASH players followed... and then the first version of the Gungnir MB - now over 5 years old is easily told apart from the Snapdragon 845, Mojo, the MB in the Lyr-3, and a DC-1.

It actually makes no sense to me why a DAC would be any different than a computer image reader, other than how much mysticism surrounds audio. You need good resolution and bit depth, with no loss of information in between. I can see how in the past this wasn't perfected yet, but how on earth would a $100 DAC these days not do this task perfectly? I wouldn't even be confident these would greatly outperform many on board motherboard sound devices, other than the extra system noise introduced.

Do you also pay for expensive custom image readers for your computing enjoyment?

 

[bagwell359]

It actually makes no sense to me why a DAC would be any different than a computer image reader, other than how much mysticism surrounds audio. You need good resolution and bit depth, with no loss of information in between. I can see how in the past this wasn't perfected yet, but how on earth would a $100 DAC these days not do this task perfectly? I wouldn't even be confident these would greatly outperform many on board motherboard sound devices, other than the extra system noise introduced.

Do you also pay for expensive custom image readers for your computing enjoyment?

I think you may not be considering all a DAC does. Its not an amp - which simply steps up a signal.

Mystical? I don't believe in differences in power cords, speaker wires (except for some esoteric panel speaker), balanced interconnects, SE interconnects (outside of env factors). I do believe in altering rooms with products like ASC traps, headphone mods including stock HFM wires -> better ones (include DIY), parametric EQ (but not following the under 100 Hz advice of the new headphone measurement giants (ill considered rubbish). Non parametric EQ's under 20 bands per channel are virtually useless. So a guy with 44 yrs in the hobby - somewhere between subjective and objective.

Custom Image Reader? I pay extra for my single malt (Oban), and my Barolo, I don't pay extra for equipment colors, or the reader.

Factors to consider in why DAC's are more complex than a reader or an amp.

* Resolution - you got that one

* Non-linearity

*Settling time - slew & ring time

*different chips - there are hundreds of chips (1356 16-bit or better now at mouser) used by DAC makers - why not use just one? Why not look up all the specs - lots of differences. Why? Maybe consumers are easily fooled - but manufacturers? Note there are 14 20 bit chips at Mouser - one costs $151k, many others in the $4-8k area - geez... why?

*what about the supporting circuitry & power supplies? Different specs/grades - and yet you believe they make no difference. Is your belief theoretical or practical?

The MB dac in the Lyr3 is nothing like the MB dac - Gungnir - Heard it blind AB'd, took all of 3 seconds to distinguish them, every time. The Lyr3 is a nice deal - the MB is good enough at that level. Schiit doesn't believe in or sell fancy power cords or interconnect cables - yet they supply different DACs at different prices. Yggy considered for years the cheapest "perfect" DAC, the Gungnir 1 bit less, almost as good (subjectively some prefer it) to the Yggy.

 

[cycloverid]

*different chips - there are hundreds of chips (1356 16-bit or better now at mouser) used by DAC makers - why not use just one? Why not look up all the specs - lots of differences. Why? Maybe consumers are easily fooled - but manufacturers? Note there are 14 20 bit chips at Mouser - one costs $151k, many others in the $4-8k area - geez... why?

*what about the supporting circuitry & power supplies? Different specs/grades - and yet you believe they make no difference. Is your belief theoretical or practical?

I've personally never been involved in a hobby/industry with more obviously fooled consumers out there than with audio. Clearly there is a big market to satisfy these consumers, and will remain as such as long as people perceive big differences with cables, dacs, amplifiers, etc. I don't think all of this is predatory though, it is a field where subjectivity is still heavily embraced. Some people just really like a little extra distortion - and can you say they're 'wrong'? I've even seen Schiit make claims to this effect.

If you want to read about a technologically complex device look no further than a graphics card. These devices have to take digital or real world data and RENDER/INTEPRET complex scenes (rendering geometry, lighting, object prediction, etc ). DACS do no such thing. The data/signal has been fully rendered, and simply needs to be transferred as losslessly as possible to another device (like a video to a monitor, etc). That's not to say there aren't some engineering steps involved or to be considered, as there would be in video playback for example (there are countless different video players out there as well, for various reasons). This is an incredibly simple device compared to a graphics card, barely anything needs to be done in comparison - outside of a variety of different strictly unnecessary features or catering to specific use cases some people enjoy.

Most of my knowledge about the world is theoretical instead of practical, and really doesn't mean anything in terms of correctness. My understanding that the earth is round instead of flat is purely theoretical for example. My understanding of graphics cards and other computer peripherals, video playback, amplifiers/dacs, etc are all theoretical - but sufficient to make this argument I would say.

 

[audiocroissant]

It is a strange situation when one has never listened to something and is here to advise those who have what the deal is. What psychological need is thus fulfilled is a good thing to ponder.

 

[cycloverid]

It is a strange situation when one has never listened to something and is here to advise those who have what the deal is. What psychological need is thus fulfilled is a good thing to ponder.

This would be a more pertinent question if it weren't obvious that there is potentially a large audience also present around this discussion. It is therefore not JUST a conversation or advise between a handful of individuals, but also where many derive their purchasing decisions - many of which are new to the hobby.

 

[Xerosnake90]

Man, are you guys really arguing about differences in DACs? I'm more blown away people would say there's no difference as that is ridiculous. If that was really true than how is there a market with price brackets in the thousands of dollars? Likewise, if all Amps are theoretically the same you wouldn't have competition there either. These products obviously offer a noticeable difference though you may not agree they're worth the cost perhaps. If there's no difference in DACs or amps then I must've imagined all the improvements I got from going to a Jotunheim 2 from a Hel 2. I get my Bifrost 2 soon and I'll let you know if that's also a noticeable difference because according to the logic my Hel 2 for $200 should be the same dac as bifrost 2 at $700

 

[Dogmatrix]

Before all this off topic stuff is deleted I would point out , there is a thread in sound science that has run for years concerning dac difference maybe go there
Not a single person has been able to point to a measured audible difference

 

[Mr Trev]

Before all this off topic stuff is deleted I would point out , there is a thread in sound science that has run for years concerning dac difference maybe go there
Not a single person has been able to point to a measured audible difference

Yes please go there. Nothing more annoying than seeing alerts about new posts and finding pages that have nothing to do with the thread itself

 

[cel4145]

Man, are you guys really arguing about differences in DACs? I'm more blown away people would say there's no difference as that is ridiculous. If that was really true than how is there a market with price brackets in the thousands of dollars?

It's against the Head-Fi rules for us to explain why to you. If you really want to know, go to the Sound Science forum on Head-Fi and ask these questions, where that kind of discussion is allowed. Or Audio Science Review forum.

 

[bagwell359]

I've personally never been involved in a hobby/industry with more obviously fooled consumers out there than with audio.

I agree, but guilt by association doesn't follow for everything to do with audio - if it did what would it say about you?

Clearly there is a big market to satisfy these consumers, and will remain as such as long as people perceive big differences with cables, dacs, amplifiers, etc. I don't think all of this is predatory though, it is a field where subjectivity is still heavily embraced. Some people just really like a little extra distortion - and can you say they're 'wrong'? I've even seen Schiit make claims to this effect.

Sure 2nd order distortion in quite large amounts (some tube circuits shure do) can sound "warm", "liquid", "romantic", etc. Whereas odd order distortion can sound "bright", "unpleasant", etc. So I'd like none or undetectable amounts of both. My 40+ year adherence to designs of Nelson Pass follows that logic.

If you want to read about a technologically complex device look no further than a graphics card. These devices have to take digital or real world data and RENDER/INTEPRET complex scenes (rendering geometry, lighting, object prediction, etc ). DACS do no such thing. The data/signal has been fully rendered, and simply needs to be transferred as losslessly as possible to another device (like a video to a monitor, etc).

So why $151k for a DAC chip? If it's simple should cost like $9.

That's not to say there aren't some engineering steps involved or to be considered, as there would be in video playback for example (there are countless different video players out there as well, for various reasons). This is an incredibly simple device compared to a graphics card, barely anything needs to be done in comparison - outside of a variety of different strictly unnecessary features or catering to specific use cases some people enjoy.

According to your understanding.

Most of my knowledge about the world is theoretical instead of practical, and really doesn't mean anything in terms of correctness. My understanding that the earth is round instead of flat is purely theoretical for example. My understanding of graphics cards and other computer peripherals, video playback, amplifiers/dacs, etc are all theoretical - but sufficient to make this argument I would say.

So, have you blind AB compared DACs? I have and the differences I've observed in the real world is sufficient on the face.

 

[millzy]

New review for the XS, not overly technical but I'm glad more are dropping.

 

[bagwell359]

Before all this off topic stuff is deleted I would point out , there is a thread in sound science that has run for years concerning dac difference maybe go there
Not a single person has been able to point to a measured audible difference

That's why the conversation is here because the doctrinaire monks of "sound science" would be tossing around that rubbish - as if you can't measure it - it doesn't exist. Like say God, the Soul, DJT's brain....

Side conversations all over this site BTW, so you just want the ones you don't approve of stepped on, or all of them?

 

[cycloverid]

I agree, but guilt by association doesn't follow for everything to do with audio - if it did what would it say about you?


Sure 2nd order distortion in quite large amounts (some tube circuits shure do) can sound "warm", "liquid", "romantic", etc. Whereas odd order distortion can sound "bright", "unpleasant", etc. So I'd like none or undetectable amounts of both. My 40+ year adherence to designs of Nelson Pass follows that logic.


So why $151k for a DAC chip? If it's simple should cost like $9.

According to your understanding.

So, have you blind AB compared DACs? I have and the differences I've observed in the real world is sufficient on the face.

The point of my first statement was merely to state that if there is a consumer base, this will likely lead to products catering to those individuals. I am amongst the 'headphone buyer' demographic certainly - less of the amp/dac/cable consumer.

Product costs don't necessarily equate to quality, right? Bespoke products can fetch ridiculous prices because there may only be one or several made. 'Economies of scale' make even ridiculously valuable products relatively cheap by contrast - like graphics cards or cell phones. Many expensive audio products seem to fall more in the bespoke category, rather than a price/performance category.

All a DAC does is convert a digital signal to analog. It's really basic and this isn't even an interesting problem for me. I've read all I think I need to understand about this technology and just passing along my take on this. Just like I don't need to blind test video playback applications to see which one looks better on my monitor, I don't need to blind test DACs. If something looks or sound different in either case, it's likely something wrong on the engineering side at this point (intentionally or not).

Okay well that's enough out of me, the folks in here are getting upset by the off topic conversations.

 

[Xerosnake90]

All a DAC does is convert a digital signal to analog. It's really basic and this isn't even an interesting problem for me. I've read all I think I need to understand about this technology and just passing along my take on this. Just like I don't need to blind test video playback applications to see which one looks better on my monitor, I don't need to blind test DACs. If something looks or sound different in either case, it's likely something wrong on the engineering side at this point (intentionally or not).

I don't agree on your comparison to a video monitor because it frankly is not on the same level. What do we measure monitors by? Resolution and color spectrum which are all very measurable and replicated with consistent results.

In audio there's no number standard to define a Soundstage, or the variability in speed and decay of notes. You can't assign a label to imaging quality or detail retrieval. We compare all headphones, amps, and DACs to each other in order to gauge just how it all sounds. And with that we can use a frequency response along with some words to give an idea, however, people can still interpret things differently.

With a 1080p image we all see the same thing. With the Edition XS we may perceive it differently. And if it weren't for that we wouldn't have DACs or Amps that create a different sound profile. As someone pointed out, DACs don't measure differently. Well how strange that there are hundreds on the market and yet people tend to enjoy the sound profile of one over the other. Paying hundreds of dollars more to get the next best thing.

If it was just numbers then we wouldn't have these issues. You have different components and construction of these devices for a reason, they create an intended result. It's not an error it's by design

 

[zadillo]

I’d love to get recommendations on a DAC/AMP to pair with the XS.

I had bought a used JDS Labs Atom+ Stack for $140 because I saw a few comments indicating it worked ok with the XS.

I’m fairly new to all of this so I wasn’t really able to perceive that the Atom+ Stack was underpowered for what the XS needs.

However I’ve recently learned in another thread that it isn’t providing enough power and that I should be looking for something more powerful to get the full benefits of the XS.

I’d like to keep things reasonable since it’s already a $500 investment in the headphones themselves but I also want to be able to enjoy the full capabilities of the XS.

Any recommendations would be much appreciated!