[Lethe]

Please skip the following 3 parts if you want to go straight to the query at hand. Also, this is my first thread, please forgive any mistakes/annoyances, thank you! 
 
INTRO/BACKGROUND:
 
Hullo, head-fiers, I'm relatively new to the audiophile scene, just got into it a few years ago with my first purchase of a pair of stock-clearance (last pair as they were soon to be discontinued at the time of purchase) Denon D5ks which might be considered mid-fi headphones which also made me crave >320 mp3 quality music, leading to a almost total conversion of my music files to flac. 
 
The D5ks are great sounding headphones although discontinued, they're extremely easy to drive so I've had no problem (with a few minor caveats) listening to them straight from my laptop, but they were way too big to listen on the go, so I got an ACS T15 which sounded good straight from my phone.
 
I travel frequently and move constantly so for the sake of convenience most of my stuff is portable and I own almost nothing desktop (I don't even own a T.V.).
 
ISSUES:
 
I've primary listened to most subgenres of rock, jazz, indie, and classical music and recently have been expanding to other genres thanks to certain discoveries on sites such as Bandcamp and Spotify. Now this has given light on very minor gripes I've had with my current gear: the D5ks has always had a very laid back and luxuriously lush sound, that coupled with the pillow-like comfort of the earpads and very low clampforce, I could wear the D5ks for hours, but I've noticed that the bass gets loose on certain tracks and gets slightly muddy when metal and electronica are fed through them. 
 
I've borrowed one my friend's portable amp (I had forgotten which make or model it was) after hearing that it could help tighten up the bass of my D5ks. Sadly, pairing that amp up with my D5ks and feeding them from my laptop made everything worse, it totally killed the bass by making it harsh and edgy, mids were brought WAY forward, highs became siren wails. It was horrific. From then on I was turned off-nay, afraid of having additional components between me and my music. Logically, I know that's impudent and with the right amp/dac/etc. I could curb the weaknesses of my headphones and have an audiophile time, but that experience shook me to my very core.
 
RESOLUTION:
 
It has been a while since the event, I have decided to dive back into the fray in my quest for audio bliss (gear-wise anyways) since listening to music has brought me great joy and with the great expansion of music genres that I now listen to I want to hunt for gear that would enhance my listening experience which began with purchasing a pair of CIEMs (JH13fp) after a long audition at a hifi store.
 
Also, I've always wondered if an external DAC could make my music sound better than the one on board my ROG Asus laptop, and if so how much.
 
 
QUESTION:
 
Having gone through many forums and websites and listening to much more experienced audiophiles, I've learned that the "audio chain" (assuming source is digital) would generally be: source files--->audio player--->DAC--->amp (optional)--->headphones/speakers/etc. (please correct me if I'm wrong). What I'm struggling with is the precedence in order of importance in the chain. I would like to know the order in which where I should be spending money and time (researching, etc.) on.
 
Also I have a related question:
 
Let's say I get a relatively cheap DAP like the Sony NWZ A-17 or the Fiio X1 and pair it with a good DAC (to bypass the onboard DAC of the DAP), would that be better than getting a mid/high-end DAP like the Fiio X5 (might wait for the X7 to come out), the Pono Player, or even an AK 100II and have music play straight from it through my CIEMs? 

 

[billybob_jcv]

The amp is not optional, what is optional is how many physical boxes are actually used in the chain.

Let's look at two extremes:

Simple Extreme:
You plug a pair of headphones directly into your ipod or smartphone. In this case, the ipod is storing the source media file, the playback software, the DAC and the headphone amp. There are only two physical devices in the system.

Complex Extreme:
Your music files are stored on a networked storage device connected to your PC. Your PC is running an audio player that is reading the source files off the storage device. You have an external USB DAC attached to your PC, and you have a separate headphone amp attached to the DAC. Your headphones are attached to the headphone amp. There are 5 physical devices in the system.

The audio process is the same for both systems: Source Media Files -> Audio Player -> DAC -> Amp -> Headphones - the only thing that changes is whether all those processes take place inside one box or many boxes.

The old saying of "the weakest link in the chain" is still true. There is a *minimum* level of quality required to achieve a system where more subtle changes can have an effect. For example, let's say you have a top of the line system - EXCEPT your MP3 files are simply terrible - they were recorded from an AM radio and they were ripped at 8K bps. Guess what? Your system is going to sound like cr@p. Now, consider another system that is top of the line, with hi res FLAC music files - EXCEPT the headphones are the freebies you buy for $4 on American Airlines. Guess what? Your system is going to sound like cr@p. The same is true of ANY device in the chain. If your DAC is skipping 75% of your bits or the clock is swinging like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, then you get Cr@p. If your amp has 20% THD at 5 mWatts, you get Cr@p. If you upgrade everything else and do NOT upgrade the weakest link, you will still have cr@p. You might get different cr@p, but it still stinks...

OK, but those are extremes, right? Now, let's assume you have a nice beginner mid-fi system. Your PC is loaded with 320Kbps MP3 files of good recordings, you have a Fiio E10K and a pair of Audio-Technica M50X. In this scenario, what change will have the biggest effect? I claim it will be the headphones. It doesn't even have to be an upgrade - move from the M50X to the Grado SR80e, and I think you will hear a significantly different sound. Change to a Sennheiser HD558, and the sound will change again. I think those changes are much more significant than changing from 320Kbps to FLAC, or changing from Windows Media Player to VLC, or changing from the E10K to a Modi/Magni stack. You would have to try really hard to find a very colored sounding tube amp to have as much sound signature change as the change from the Grado to the M50X.

Does that mean that EVERY change of headphone has a significant sound change? NO - of course not. many headphones sound very similar, even across brands and price ranges. In addition, the farther up the price brackets you go, the differences often become smaller and smaller. At the top, most of the gear all sounds great - they just have different flavors of great.

 

[KG Jag]

Get a quality DAP that has a good DAC (or two).  Some can be used an stand alone usb DAC's out of (say) a computer.

 

[Lethe]

The amp is not optional, what is optional is how many physical boxes are actually used in the chain.

Let's look at two extremes:

Simple Extreme:
You plug a pair of headphones directly into your ipod or smartphone. In this case, the ipod is storing the source media file, the playback software, the DAC and the headphone amp. There are only two physical devices in the system.

Complex Extreme:
Your music files are stored on a networked storage device connected to your PC. Your PC is running an audio player that is reading the source files off the storage device. You have an external USB DAC attached to your PC, and you have a separate headphone amp attached to the DAC. Your headphones are attached to the headphone amp. There are 5 physical devices in the system.

The audio process is the same for both systems: Source Media Files -> Audio Player -> DAC -> Amp -> Headphones - the only thing that changes is whether all those processes take place inside one box or many boxes.

The old saying of "the weakest link in the chain" is still true. There is a *minimum* level of quality required to achieve a system where more subtle changes can have an effect. For example, let's say you have a top of the line system - EXCEPT your MP3 files are simply terrible - they were recorded from an AM radio and they were ripped at 8K bps. Guess what? Your system is going to sound like cr@p. Now, consider another system that is top of the line, with hi res FLAC music files - EXCEPT the headphones are the freebies you buy for $4 on American Airlines. Guess what? Your system is going to sound like cr@p. The same is true of ANY device in the chain. If your DAC is skipping 75% of your bits or the clock is swinging like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, then you get Cr@p. If your amp has 20% THD at 5 mWatts, you get Cr@p. If you upgrade everything else and do NOT upgrade the weakest link, you will still have cr@p. You might get different cr@p, but it still stinks...

OK, but those are extremes, right? Now, let's assume you have a nice beginner mid-fi system. Your PC is loaded with 320Kbps MP3 files of good recordings, you have a Fiio E10K and a pair of Audio-Technica M50X. In this scenario, what change will have the biggest effect? I claim it will be the headphones. It doesn't even have to be an upgrade - move from the M50X to the Grado SR80e, and I think you will hear a significantly different sound. Change to a Sennheiser HD558, and the sound will change again. I think those changes are much more significant than changing from 320Kbps to FLAC, or changing from Windows Media Player to VLC, or changing from the E10K to a Modi/Magni stack. You would have to try really hard to find a very colored sounding tube amp to have as much sound signature change as the change from the Grado to the M50X.

Does that mean that EVERY change of headphone has a significant sound change? NO - of course not. many headphones sound very similar, even across brands and price ranges. In addition, the farther up the price brackets you go, the differences often become smaller and smaller. At the top, most of the gear all sounds great - they just have different flavors of great.

 
Thanks for the in-depth response! What I'm struggling is that I now have high quality files and a very good headphone, but I'm using an on-board DAC from my laptop and I don't have an external amp, but I've heard a lot of people who can't tell the difference after getting an external DAC vs just using the on-board DAC (even with mid-end DACs from the $300-$700 price range). Any suggestions on where to start?
 

  Get a quality DAP that has a good DAC (or two).  Some can be used an stand alone usb DAC's out of (say) a computer.

 
Any recommendations? The only DAPs I can think of that can be used as a stand alone usb DAC are the AK DAPs and everyone agrees that they are more of a luxury item, performing way under their price point albeit still the best performing DAPs out there. 

 

[KG Jag]

I bought my AK 100 plus 2 memory cards--all for under $400.  So no--the AK DAP's are not just luxury items, if you're willing to do some shopping and, if necessary have patience.
 
I use my DAP's differently than you do/will.  Nevertheless the AK 100 or 100 II, along with the iBasso DX 90 might meet your needs.  Others by Fiio (X5?) and even the DX 50 may work for you too.  Software upgrades have expanded features and capabilities.

 

[billybob_jcv]

I firmly believe that the headphones being used drive the requirement for an amp. If your onboard DAC/amp is decent (meaning the THD is reasonable for the power output, and the output impedance is also reasonable), and you are using efficient headphones, then you might get little or no significant change from adding an external DAC or amp. OTOH, if your current DAC/amp is struggling to supply the current & voltage required by your headphones, then adding a new amp can have a very significant impact - a pair of headphones that sound congested and lifeless can become dynamic and engaging.

Adding a noisy amp that has an output impedance & gain that matches poorly with low-impedance headphones can make good headphones sound worse. My rule is: Let the headphones determine the need and requirements of the amp.

I don't know the Denon D5000, other than they are well respected headphones that are considered to be much better than urban cr@p Denon replaced them with!

 

[Lethe]

You bought an AK 100 plus 2 memory cards for under $400?? How is that even possible O_O I've been trawling ebay and the classifieds on here and I couldn't find anything that starts with "AK" that shows up under $600. Also, how much better is the AK100ii than the original AK100? 

 

[Lethe]

I guess my problem is that I do want to get the best out of my D5ks (without breaking bank of course) and everyone seems to be talking about getting external DACs and amps and how it would be a step up in terms of SQ. However, I don't think I need an external amp for my D5ks because they have an impedance of 25ohms which is great, but I'm wondering if a better DAC (than my onboard soundcard) could improve SQ. The D5ks are warm and the bass is a little loose and while I do enjoy the lush and laid back presentation (sooooo comfy), I find myself in want of tighter bass. Really feel like taking my laptop and D5ks to a hifi store that lets me audition their stuff and just spend as much time as I need to find a DAC and maybe an amp that could make a significant amount of improvement. Sadly, I can't do that because time constraints (might have to make several trips to the store). Also the Denon Urban line took their already loose-ish bass house sound and made the bass muddier and somewhat harsh, my pretty D5ks with their polished wooden housing are weeping silently at the sight (sound) of its younger siblings.

 

[billybob_jcv]

The question you have to ask yourself is: how much is satisfying your curiosity about adding an external DAC/amp worth to you? I don't know whether an amp will change your bass to any significant level. My gut tells me it will just get a bit louder, which you might mistake for being better, but I don't really know. I usually tell people not to try to change their sound with DACs/amps - if you want a different sound, then get different headphones. However, I also believe in taking the path of least risk. If you buy a DAC/amp, you will have satisfied your curiosity one way or the other. Having a good DAC/amp would then allow you to think about other headphones that might need the amp.

 

[RRod]

  I guess my problem is that I do want to get the best out of my D5ks (without breaking bank of course) and everyone seems to be talking about getting external DACs and amps and how it would be a step up in terms of SQ. However, I don't think I need an external amp for my D5ks because they have an impedance of 25ohms which is great, but I'm wondering if a better DAC (than my onboard soundcard) could improve SQ. The D5ks are warm and the bass is a little loose and while I do enjoy the lush and laid back presentation (sooooo comfy), I find myself in want of tighter bass. Really feel like taking my laptop and D5ks to a hifi store that lets me audition their stuff and just spend as much time as I need to find a DAC and maybe an amp that could make a significant amount of improvement. Sadly, I can't do that because time constraints (might have to make several trips to the store). Also the Denon Urban line took their already loose-ish bass house sound and made the bass muddier and somewhat harsh, my pretty D5ks with their polished wooden housing are weeping silently at the sight (sound) of its younger siblings.

 
Importance goes from the outside in, so source and headphones are more important than dac and amp. The outer elements also determine specs for the inner, so if you just LOVE the stuff you get from HDtracks and don't want to resample, then you will need a DAC that can do 24/192, and if you just love headphones that are hard to drive, you will need an amp.
 
As you said, the D5ks are low impedance and high sensitivity, so they'll be easy to drive. The low impedance does mean that if your headphone amp has high output impedance then you can get a bit of modification of the sound signature, but as the D5k has a pretty flat impedance curve I doubt this will be too noticeable. Other than that, the main issue with onboard DACs/amps is noise, so if you're not hearing that then you probably don't need anything more for the D5k. There are definite advantages to liking the sound of easily-driven cans. If you do want more bass, just use a bit of EQ. It never killed anyone.

 

[billybob_jcv]

I like your "outside-in" concept - I'll probably steal that in the future - good show!

 

[RRod]

I like your "outside-in" concept - I'll probably steal that in the future - good show!

 

[Thebb]

  Any recommendations? The only DAPs I can think of that can be used as a stand alone usb DAC are the AK DAPs and everyone agrees that they are more of a luxury item, performing way under their price point albeit still the best performing DAPs out there. 

 
FiiO X3 and X5 can be used as standalone DACs as well.

 

[Lethe]

Now that you've mentioned it...I did have an audition with the Sony MDR Z-7 paired with their UDA-1 DAC/Amp listening to a few 24/192 songs, without the DAC/Amp, the Z-7 just sounds reedy and soundstage closed up noticeably, but the Z-7 has an impedance of 70ohms so I guess the way it's meant to be driven would be quite different from my D5ks. I went home to my D5ks to listen to the same songs again, and noticed that it was looser overall with lesser soundstage than the Z-7 UDA-1 pairing. Both times, the music was fed through an iphone. Guess I have to upgrade my headphones and pair them with compatible DAC/amp combos? Also, my onboard soundcard does produce quite some hisssss, I've tried to solve the problem by reinstalling my audio driver, it helped but the hiss went from a sharp "shush" to an audible tsss. But thank you very much for your explanation, I'm beginning to get a clearer picture now, and maybe what I would like to do to enhance my listening experience: research and upgrade my headphones to something that would accommodate my growing music tastes and then pair it with compatible gear. 

 

[KG Jag]

  You bought an AK 100 plus 2 memory cards for under $400?? How is that even possible O_O I've been trawling ebay and the classifieds on here and I couldn't find anything that starts with "AK" that shows up under $600. Also, how much better is the AK100ii than the original AK100? 

Reputable retailer closing it out through eBay this past summer.
 
Haven't studied it in detail, but I understand that the AK 100II is friendlier to low impedance cans/IEM's.