[Purplezorz]

Hey Guys,

Trying to understand something in regards to distortion. A bit of background and the question will follow after in bold which you can skip directly to.

I currently have a Creative E5 Soundblaster DAC/AMP. It's great, because the in-built software allows you to store multiple EQ presets, it has many outputs/inputs and it pushes everything.

However, on high gain, when you turn it up, oftentimes headphones start to distort; mainly in the bass region. This is kinda expected because I only own dynamic headphones (Sony XB1000 and 1000X, Philips Fidelio x2, Beyerdynamics DT 770 80Ohm and the V-Moda Nero - have you guessed I'm a bit of a bass head yet?) and from what I can tell, with dynamic headphones, the same driver is playing everything, so when it's playing bass, it still has to work very hard playing everything else. This is opposed to speaker systems with a dedicated sub, electrostats which appear to be magic and planars which appear to use much lighter and higher speed parts. I've only tried the former.

In times when the headphones are under load, they either sound like they're bottoming out, produce horrible distorted bass, and/or vocals coming through a fan.

Now, up until somewhat recently, I thought this was because the Creative was exceptionally powerful in addition to the headphones just reaching their mechanical limits (except for the V-modas, they don't sound particularly good, but for bass, they just keep taking power like some kind of sick perverted obsession). But I recently heard something in a Z review (DAP's : The Movie) which implied it may be the AMP reaching it's physical limits instead. This got me researching amps and I soon realised that the Creative was not particularly powerful (in addition to their measurements in a simple Mw reading being ridiculously difficult to obtain).

So my question is: What are the things that cause a headphone to distort?

I'm planning on buying an iFi iDSD Black Label one day and it is many more times powerful, but I'm wondering if I will get the same results as the Creative. If the headphones are reaching their limits, then this will be the case. If it's the amp "giving dirty power" or the amp reaching ITS limits, then I have a feeling things will be noticeably different.

Oh, I almost forgot, yes I do use some EQ curves that favour the bass, so I get that digital distortion can occur too. Seeing as the V-moda takes that and power much better than others, I would've thought it's mechanical capabilities that's causing the distortion. I haven't tried it with my Fidelios, but they're open and I like it's sound signature unaltered; plus I don't want to do anything that could possibly damage them. In any case, for the purpose of this post, let's assume all filters are off.

Thanks in advance,

Purplezorz

 

[MindsMirror]

If it is the headphones themselves distorting as much as you describe, you probably have them too loud to the point of causing hearing damage. I also suspect that your EQ settings are causing digital clipping. Most modern digital music is already at the maximum digital level, so boosting any frequencies will almost certainly cause clipping unless you compensate by reducing the input/pre-gain. Use a software with an EQ and a peak level meter to apply EQ settings and check if clipping is occurring. You can do this in foobar2000, or I'm sure there are countless other free programs if you prefer something else.

 

[Music Alchemist]

First rule for bass boosting: Reduce the gain in your player by at least the amount of your largest boost/cut in order to avoid distortion.

Second rule: Use an amp powerful enough to handle the extra bass without distorting. How much power you need depends on the headphone and how heavy your boost is.

Once that's taken care of, you'll see which headphones can handle heavy bass the best. (Check this thread for extreme examples.)

 

[Purplezorz]

First rule for bass boosting: Reduce the gain in your player by at least the amount of your largest boost/cut in order to avoid distortion.

Second rule: Use an amp powerful enough to handle the extra bass without distorting. How much power you need depends on the headphone and how heavy your boost is.

Once that's taken care of, you'll see which headphones can handle heavy bass the best. (Check this thread for extreme examples.)

I do love the basshead club. I do eventually want to acquire the SZ-2000s. When I have another bass day, I may try lowering the gain on the XB1000 curve and see how they fair - but tbh, I don't think anything is going to beat the V-Modas. So, can't wait to eventually acquire some M-100s.

There are various other headphones that I'm interested in, but not enough for me to buy them. Z7s and whichever XB headphone that sony says goes down to 2hz, Ultrasones and the Fostex TH900 MK1 or 2.

In any case, I'm still not entirely convinced as to if the amp is causing any distortion, because the results differ from headphone to headphone, but I'll be interested to see what the iFi does one day. I will pair it with a Z1R.

 

[Music Alchemist]

I don't think anything is going to beat the V-Modas.

In any case, I'm still not entirely convinced as to if the amp is causing any distortion, because the results differ from headphone to headphone, but I'll be interested to see what the iFi does one day. I will pair it with a Z1R.

Plenty of headphones beat the V-MODA, both in terms of sound quality (countless ones) and bass impact capability (as documented in the extreme bass thread). But perhaps you meant a combination of various things instead of just one thing.

If you boost the bass more than the amp can handle, it can distort badly. But in some cases it can be the limitations of the headphone.

 

[Purplezorz]

If it is the headphones themselves distorting as much as you describe, you probably have them too loud to the point of causing hearing damage. I also suspect that your EQ settings are causing digital clipping. Most modern digital music is already at the maximum digital level, so boosting any frequencies will almost certainly cause clipping unless you compensate by reducing the input/pre-gain. Use a software with an EQ and a peak level meter to apply EQ settings and check if clipping is occurring. You can do this in foobar2000, or I'm sure there are countless other free programs if you prefer something else.

I will have to explore the wonders of foobar and the various add-ons at some point.
There appears to be a common Windows EQ as well that I forget the name of. I think you have to get the GUI as well as the program...
In regards to having them loud; yes. But the Beyers for example seem to distort bass very quickly (i.e. 9/10 volume directly from a smart phone on low notes) and I'm pretty sure that's just a mechanical limitation (which is why I hate how it's being masqueraded as a basshead headphone - yes the extension is amazing and just the best phones for films IMO so far, but what's the point if it falls apart so easily?) and other phones that I play "really" loud usually have the highs turned down to compensate.

In some instances, if you just cut everything above like 300K and leave everything below at 0 and just turn the volume up, the same effect of distortion is often repeatable. Some of the reviews of the XB1000 for example make me incredulous that I'm getting the full potential out of it, or mine are just old and the drivers are ragged. Could also be the EQ curves, but again, even if I just cut everything other than the bass, it gets to that distortion point quite easily. They're already easy to drive so I'm guessing it can't take the power I'm giving it - but, again, I'm worried that it may be a "quality of the amp" thing...

 

[Music Alchemist]

I will have to explore the wonders of foobar and the various add-ons at some point.

I recommend this foobar2000 VST wrapper and parametric equalizer to start with.

http://www.yohng.com/software/foobarvst.html
http://www.rs-met.com/freebies.html

In regards to having them loud; yes. But the Beyers for example seem to distort bass very quickly (i.e. 9/10 volume directly from a smart phone on low notes) and I'm pretty sure that's just a mechanical limitation (which is why I hate how it's being masqueraded as a basshead headphone - yes the extension is amazing and just the best phones for films IMO so far, but what's the point if it falls apart so easily?)

Don't assess headphones without a quality amp and DAC.

In some instances, if you just cut everything above like 300K and leave everything below at 0 and just turn the volume up, the same effect of distortion is often repeatable. Some of the reviews of the XB1000 for example make me incredulous that I'm getting the full potential out of it, or mine are just old and the drivers are ragged. Could also be the EQ curves, but again, even if I just cut everything other than the bass, it gets to that distortion point quite easily. They're already easy to drive so I'm guessing it can't take the power I'm giving it - but, again, I'm worried that it may be a "quality of the amp" thing...

Which is why you should reduce the gain in the digital domain and use an amp to control the volume.

 

[Purplezorz]

Plenty of headphones beat the V-MODA, both in terms of sound quality (countless ones) and bass impact capability (as documented in the extreme bass thread). But perhaps you meant a combination of various things instead of just one thing.

If you boost the bass more than the amp can handle, it can distort badly. But in some cases it can be the limitations of the headphone.

SQ yes, that's not difficult to believe. Every other headphone I have has better SQ than the V-Modas. But they do bass the best. Not saying they're the only one's ever, but the M-100s for example will undoubtedly be difficult to beat. I'm guessing the SZ-1000s and 2000s will kill everyone else off because of how the headphone is crafted, but I'm skeptical about most of the other ones.
On the other hand, I was seriously surprised at the M50/X (I forget which one) when I heard them. Annoyingly narrow soundstage but that did have quite a kick. Haven't tried it on this amp though, so yeah.

Yeah, it's really obvious when it's badly distorting because of EQ since you don't even need to turn the music up. But the way that's worded is interesting - "more than the amp can handle". Is it a case of the amp can't handle it or the waveforms are just clipping to hell. If it's the latter, doesn't matter what you pump it out of, it will sound terrible I guess.

 

[Music Alchemist]

SQ yes, that's not difficult to believe. Every other headphone I have has better SQ than the V-Modas. But they do bass the best. Not saying they're the only one's ever, but the M-100s for example will undoubtedly be difficult to beat. I'm guessing the SZ-1000s and 2000s will kill everyone else off because of how the headphone is crafted, but I'm skeptical about most of the other ones.
On the other hand, I was seriously surprised at the M50/X (I forget which one) when I heard them. Annoyingly narrow soundstage but that did have quite a kick. Haven't tried it on this amp though, so yeah.

Yeah, it's really obvious when it's badly distorting because of EQ since you don't even need to turn the music up. But the way that's worded is interesting - "more than the amp can handle". Is it a case of the amp can't handle it or the waveforms are just clipping to hell. If it's the latter, doesn't matter what you pump it out of, it will sound terrible I guess.

The M-100 is ranked 10th in the first post of that thread based on extensive, documented tests. There's nothing to be skeptical about, because it's already been proven. And there are various other headphones which were not tested so extensively that can also beat it in terms of bass impact under extreme conditions.

Follow the two rules I listed. Then, in most cases, you will not have distortion.

 

[Purplezorz]

I recommend this foobar2000 VST wrapper and parametric equalizer to start with.
http://www.yohng.com/software/foobarvst.html
http://www.rs-met.com/freebies.html

Holy detail granularity o.o

I'll bookmark that for a long weekend.

 

[Purplezorz]

The M-100 is ranked 10th in the first post of that thread based on extensive, documented tests. There's nothing to be skeptical about, because it's already been proven. And there are various other headphones which were not tested so extensively that can also beat it in terms of bass impact under extreme conditions.

Follow the two rules I listed. Then, in most cases, you will not have distortion.

Gotcha.

True - the paper tests are pretty awesome and telling.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

...and from what I can tell, with dynamic headphones, the same driver is playing everything, so when it's playing bass, it still has to work very hard playing everything else. This is opposed to speaker systems with a dedicated sub...

On fullrange drivers the same driver plays (or tries to play) 20hz to 20,000hz. It does not matter if it's dynamic, planar, or electrostat, if it's a single fullrange driver design, you have a single driver per channel trying to play full spectrum.

Audeze

Stax

Sennheiser

Same thing goes with speakers.

Magnepan

What you're thinking of are multiple driver designs, like this fully dynamic driver design.

Focal

Or these electrostat+dynamic driver hybrids.

Aurum Cantus

...electrostats which appear to be magic and planars which appear to use much lighter and higher speed parts. I've only tried the former.

It's not s much that they're lighter, the real difference is the operating principle. A dynamic driver has to pump back and forth hard, while electrostats basically just vibrate. Other planar designs still resemble an electrostat more in how they operate. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

A dynamic driver pumping hard back and forth will move a lot of air, but the downside is that it exposes the diaphragm to more driver distortion due to this comparatively more violent motion. The louder you want it playing, the farther it pumps, and the more low frequencies you want it to play that will be audible at a given distance (ie even a small driver can produce 20hz, but you'd hear it only if that driver was around two inches from your eardrums, vs a 22in MTX Jackhammer that can tell the whole ghetto that you've sold enough drugs to make everybody listen to Lil Jon, or if you want to be able to sell those party girls more Ecstasy that can enhance the bass sensations), the wider the diaphragm needs to be (ie why tweeters going to subwoofers get progressively larger). Making a large diaphragm pump far out needs a high roll surround and a suspension system that will handle the stress, and then you need a very tough diaphragm that won't tear when you do that, so you end up making the diaphragm heavier the louder you want the low end to be.

In case you're wondering why it's called THE "Jackhammer"...

Obviously, while headphones won't need to be heard from several ghetto blocks away, you still don't have a lot of space (or neck muscles, not even somebody like Brock Lesnar) to accommodate a suspension system like on heavy duty subwoofers designed to shatter windshields or rock a theater, on top of which they still need to play fullrange (and the higher the frequency, the more cycles of movement it has to do).


Electrostats by contrast won't be able to move that much air pushing low frequencies, even though they're massive, since the surface area to low end extension ratio isn't the same. That's why Martin Logan for example built a subwoofer into each speaker unit, or why Magnepan has a separate but still electrostat design subwoofer module for the MMG.

In times when the headphones are under load, they either sound like they're bottoming out, produce horrible distorted bass, and/or vocals coming through a fan.

You need a lot of things to prevent those: high roll surround with a heavy duty suspension system (think 4x4 offroader suspension), a tough diaphragm (that 4x4 with chassis reinforcements and a rollcage), and a lot of power (think of a Land Rover with a V8 turbodiesel) and high damping factor (think of that V8 turbodiesel with the latest turbo tech and Bosch fuel injection).

So my question is: What are the things that cause a headphone to distort?

The same thing that will cause a Lancer Evo, Pajero Evo, any other car - road or race - to crash: going beyond its limits. Go beyond the power limit of the amp with the volume control and you'll clip. Amp with a low damping factor will not be able to control the driver well. Go beyond what the drivers can go and you'll stress the moving parts. Boost bass EQ and you'd do basically the same thing as cranking up the volume control, whether it's clipping the amp, going beyond its damping factor, or going beyond what the drivers can do.

Oh, I almost forgot, yes I do use some EQ curves that favour the bass, so I get that digital distortion can occur too.

It's "digital distortion" in the sense that you're modifying the digital signal, but the specific distortion you have a problem with is the equipment not being able to handle what you're asking it to do.

Think of it like putting an AI pilot (like in that horrible movie with Jamie Fox in it) in an F86 Saber. Sure, it can handle more G's than a squishy human in a current tech cock pit, like how movies seem to think that pulling a lot of Gs at max speed causes a pilot who can't breathe to paradoxically detach his oxygen tube (like in Independence Day), but if it tries to pull as much G's as a Sukhoi 27, you might as well just write off the F86 before it lands on something that costs more. Like people who can slam you with a class action lawsuit.

I'm planning on buying an iFi iDSD Black Label one day and it is many more times powerful, but I'm wondering if I will get the same results as the Creative. If the headphones are reaching their limits, then this will be the case. If it's the amp "giving dirty power" or the amp reaching ITS limits, then I have a feeling things will be noticeably different.

Only one way to find out.

(Sony XB1000 and 1000X, Philips Fidelio x2, Beyerdynamics DT 770 80Ohm and the V-Moda Nero - have you guessed I'm a bit of a bass head yet?)

Or skip the compromises of headphones and build a 15in subwoofer in a transmission line enslosure. Or hey, go with a 22in Jackhammer.

Upside: if this is in your car, the bass might "tingle" your date in the right body parts; if it's in your HT, you can watch Annabelle and The Conjuring with no compromise to the infrasound in the background music, which gives her a feeling of extreme dread, but since she's probably curled up around you, she will then associate your presence with safety and security, kind of like how the Lionness gets soooooooo hot after the black-maned lion laid the smack down on two ragged, pride-less (and obviously LOSER lions who can't get any mates) who tried to murder poor little Simba and Nala.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Magnepan has a separate but still electrostat design subwoofer module for the MMG.

Magnepans are ribbon / planar magnetic, not electrostatic.

 

[Danielbea122]

I literally fixed the distortion problem with my X2s yesterday prrof is in my last thread.

Basically with my EQ i lowered everything to - 3ish db as my flat line then i added my bass and a touch of treble

Sound is night and day. Im using a fiio a3 amp though

 

[Oscar-HiFi]

SQ yes, that's not difficult to believe. Every other headphone I have has better SQ than the V-Modas. But they do bass the best. Not saying they're the only one's ever, but the M-100s for example will undoubtedly be difficult to beat. I'm guessing the SZ-1000s and 2000s will kill everyone else off because of how the headphone is crafted, but I'm skeptical about most of the other ones.
On the other hand, I was seriously surprised at the M50/X (I forget which one) when I heard them. Annoyingly narrow soundstage but that did have quite a kick. Haven't tried it on this amp though, so yeah.

Yeah, it's really obvious when it's badly distorting because of EQ since you don't even need to turn the music up. But the way that's worded is interesting - "more than the amp can handle". Is it a case of the amp can't handle it or the waveforms are just clipping to hell. If it's the latter, doesn't matter what you pump it out of, it will sound terrible I guess.

To me it sounds like the amp is clipping, my feliks audio espressivo tube amp will do this if I go above 12 O'clock with power hungry planars (Susvara, HE-6, HE-500 etc....), it sounds crackly and distorted.

Also as others have said, with EQ if you want to boost 5dB in the bass, don't boost it, instead drop all other frequencies by 5dB, this will help prevent clipping, but the main factor in your equation is the amp in my opinon.