[Phonio Maximus]

Morning all,

New owner of Sennheiser HD6xx headphones. Being used with PC with built in sound card, so I know there will be a benefit in purchasing an external DAC.

The volume levels I get from the PC to the headphones is more than enough. My listening level is around 45% of the available volume that is able to be provided by the PC alone.

Just wondering, if there are benefits of a headphone Amp in my situation? I know that a lot of DACs have an amp built in, but I guess my question is, does an amp simply increase the volume to headphones whose volume is too quiet, or are there other benefits also (such as the quality of the amplification of an external device, being of a better quality than what a PC alone can do? - resulting in better sound from the headphones even if I don't need them to be louder than what they currently are).

 

[AussieMick]

Morning all,

New owner of Sennheiser HD6xx headphones. Being used with PC with built in sound card, so I know there will be a benefit in purchasing an external DAC.

The volume levels I get from the PC to the headphones is more than enough. My listening level is around 45% of the available volume that is able to be provided by the PC alone.

Just wondering, if there are benefits of a headphone Amp in my situation? I know that a lot of DACs have an amp built in, but I guess my question is, does an amp simply increase the volume to headphones whose volume is too quiet, or are there other benefits also (such as the quality of the amplification of an external device, being of a better quality than what a PC alone can do? - resulting in better sound from the headphones even if I don't need them to be louder than what they currently are).

You’ve hit the nail on the head. A good amp will be lower noise, have better control especially in the bass, have a more open and specific stage, and give you better dynamic contrast. All of that regardless of volume.

As for a DAC, yes a good one will elevate your listening in much the sane way an amplifier will. Clarity, detail, stage and dynamics.

If you get an amp and DAC separately then you have the opportunity to upgrade each one as funds allow if that’s what you want, but an all in one amp/DAC could well keep you happy for a long time.

I love my Mojo2 running from my computer for music and movies, and my son loves it for gaming. He has the HD600

Good luck!

 

[Hypops]

Morning all,

New owner of Sennheiser HD6xx headphones. Being used with PC with built in sound card, so I know there will be a benefit in purchasing an external DAC.

The volume levels I get from the PC to the headphones is more than enough. My listening level is around 45% of the available volume that is able to be provided by the PC alone.

Just wondering, if there are benefits of a headphone Amp in my situation? I know that a lot of DACs have an amp built in, but I guess my question is, does an amp simply increase the volume to headphones whose volume is too quiet, or are there other benefits also (such as the quality of the amplification of an external device, being of a better quality than what a PC alone can do? - resulting in better sound from the headphones even if I don't need them to be louder than what they currently are).

Volume is not the same thing as power. In other words, don't mistake "45% of the available volume" for 45% of the available power. At any given volume setting, you could be below, at, or above the max power output of your sound card. And that value changes depending on the load (your headphones).

Said more simply, if you can hear music and it doesn't sound terrible, you don't need an external amplifier; however, if you're using your motherboard's built-in headphone output, you would absolutely hear audible benefits from even a very inexpensive external amplifier and DAC. If you're just getting started, look to budget DAC/amp combos from companies like Schiit, Topping, iFi, JDS, etc. They'll cost you $100-$150 (US).

 

[earmonger]

OP is in Australia, which might make US companies like Schiit and JDS overpriced with shipping. Also look at companies like Topping, FiiO and SMSL.

For bare-bones excellence, the VE Megatron is a DAC/Amp from China that's all of $56 shipped to USA, might be even less in Australia. It doesn't have a volume control -- it's controlled from the PC volume control. It's USB powered, no battery or power supply, so you can also run it from your phone.

https://www.veclan.com/engappliance_sel_one?eng_ApplianceVo.eac_id=63

Some of the reviews here are a little goofy -- you don't need a software tweak -- but generally quite positive, and I have had zero problems with mine.
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/venture-electronics-megatron.26010/reviews

 

[Phonio Maximus]

Thanks to each replier, all responses appreciated.

It often seems that the reason given for purchasing a headphone amp is to increase the volume of headphones that are too quiet when connected to a PC, and the other reasons either get overlooked or are not realised.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. A good amp will be lower noise, have better control especially in the bass, have a more open and specific stage, and give you better dynamic contrast. All of that regardless of volume.

The response above hits the nail on the head for me. I will be purchasing a DAC/Amp 'combo', so it will not be possible to do an actual before and after listen test for the Amp alone...... but it is good to know there should be some benefit.

I am hoping there will be an even greater improvement received from the DAC side of the unit, bypassing the likely $10 integrated sound chip of my PC.

I can see that an amp will provide benefits in the quality of amplification, even though an increase in volume is not required.

That Mojo 2 looks impressive, some of the Chinese company offerings also look interesting. I don't have a way to try out any of the DAC offerings before purchase, so (maybe like many others), I will be purchasing based on reviews and recommendations alone. Are there stores in the US, where you can bring in your headphones and try out 10 different DACs side by side?

I am thinking that the DAC I will purchase will also have RCA out so that I can connect the PC to the home Hifi.

 

[BS5711]

Do consider that the difference between your PC and a DAC/amp may not be as great as you infer based on comments from others here and elsewhere.

My old 2014 MacBook Pro doesn't do a bad job but my newer HP Z Book is pretty average sounding. Dedicated audio equipment is not a dramatic night and day whole other level relative to the MacBook but it is much more so from the HP but even then the HP makes listenable sound and I guess some might prefer that sound over dedicated audio gear, I don't but it is conceivable someone might.

I have bought a bunch of DAC/amps, DAC and amps chasing the really obvious sound difference that others talk about and I have never found it. For me the difference between decent devices is nowhere near the differences that others describe and nowhere near the differences between different models of headphones and IEM. I bought a full tube amplifier known to give the tube sound to pair with my HD600 and for me it simply wasn't what I expected based on comments from others and very subtly different to much cheaper solid state gear

All I am suggesting is to temper expectations and start with something modest to test the water.

Addicted to Audio are local to you and seem to be as well priced as any, I am your neighbour over the ditch and have bought form them several times with no complaints.

https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/

The FiiO K7 would be a good modest priced stating point and would provide good bang for buck.

https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/collections/fiio/products/fiio-k7-dac-headphone-amplifier

Due to the difference in power output you might get better performance from the 4.4mm balanced output but frankly even that isn't going to be a night and day improvement but would technically get the best from the K7. You can get 4.4mm balanced cables for the 6 series Sennheisers from all manner of places at all manner of price points. An XINHS cable from AliExpress would be a good starting point, I have about a dozen of their cables and they are well made and well priced.

 

[Phonio Maximus]

Do consider that the difference between your PC and a DAC/amp may not be as great as you infer based on comments from others here and elsewhere.

Yes, wishful thinking side of brain hopes it is a big improvement, other side of brain hopes it is at least a noticeable improvement. I really have no way of knowing in advance.

Sound chips in PC's have gotten better over the years, but there probably is limited incentive to a PC manufacturer to spend money on sound that is anything more than satisfactory. I have a HP Spectre which is towards the high end for a PC, but still I don't think the sound specs were anything more than standard.

4.4mm balanced cables

I considered these, and see Aliexpress has a few. People report that sound cables alone will not improve sound (which makes sense), but having access to the 4.4mm jack on the DAC may.

Would a 4.4mm Balanced Male to 3.5mm (1/8'') Balanced Female Headphones Plug Adapter be worth considering (allowing one to keep the original Sennheiser cable, but adapting the end to fit into 4.4mm DAC port?

 

[BS5711]

Would a 4.4mm Balanced Male to 3.5mm (1/8'') Balanced Female Headphones Plug Adapter be worth considering (allowing one to keep the original Sennheiser cable, but adapting the end to fit into 4.4mm DAC port?

No it is not.

Many will tell you that such an adapter will fry your amplifier, it won't. But it will only give you the same output as the 1/4 inch or 3.5mm single ended output of a device not the added power and technical improvement of the 4.4mm jack.

Again, many will tell you that the balanced output will sound significantly better and some will say that the cable will make a difference even if both have the same plug arrangement. Technically the balance output of a device with both balanced (4.4mm of XLR) and single ended (1/4 inch or 3.5mm) jacks will be better but it is at a level that is usually completely irrelevant audibly or nearly so such that any audible difference would be hard to detect. My experience is that cables (plug type aside) will make a difference in your head only and any actual difference will only exist if one is faulty. There are outlier cases that cables can make a genuine difference but the 6 series Sennheisers are not it.

If there are differences they are subtle at best and I believe should be put aside if you are after a genuinely significant upgrade. You can fuss with the other stuff later and make up your own mind about what matters and what doesn't.

EDITED TO ADD: For clarity after seeing Hypops post below, my comments above about balanced outputs versus single ended on a given device are based on the device being truly balanced not just using a 4.4mm jack for convenience as some do. However, if the balanced output is "louder" it means that there is some difference and that is usually that the design is in fact balanced in that it uses a positive and a negative per channel not just positives and a common ground. It is louder because there are twice as many amplifiers, two per channel not just one. The whole balanced thing is all but meaningless in IEM and headphone audio and is designed to sell new gear more than anything. It is an extension of professional audio with "differential" design and "common mode rejection" that applies in long runs of cables where they are likely to pick up noise from power cables etc. A small DAC/amp sitting on ones desk really has little to do with any of that.

 

[Phonio Maximus]

No it is not.

Many will tell you that such an adapter will fry your amplifier, it won't. But it will only give you the same output as the 1/4 inch or 3.5mm single ended output of a device not the added power and technical improvement of the 4.4mm jack.

Again, many will tell you that the balanced output will sound significantly better and some will say that the cable will make a difference even if both have the same plug arrangement. Technically the balance output of a device with both balanced (4.4mm of XLR) and single ended (1/4 inch or 3.5mm) jacks will be better but it is at a level that is usually completely irrelevant audibly or nearly so such that any audible difference would be hard to detect. My experience is that cables (plug type aside) will make a difference in your head only and any actual difference will only exist if one is faulty. There are outlier cases that cables can make a genuine difference but the 6 series Sennheisers are not it.

If there are differences they are subtle at best and I believe should be put aside if you are after a genuinely significant upgrade. You can fuss with the other stuff later and make up your own mind about what matters and what doesn't.

Thanks! When you see that something like this is available to purchase, it is easy to then assume there is a benefit by using it. (perhaps if a device only had a 4.4mm port and nothing else, this may be the exception where this adaptor would be useful).

 

[Hypops]

Would a 4.4mm Balanced Male to 3.5mm (1/8'') Balanced Female Headphones Plug Adapter be worth considering (allowing one to keep the original Sennheiser cable, but adapting the end to fit into 4.4mm DAC port?

Sure. Easily done and with no real consequence. I myself use an adapter for my HD 600, and as you’ve already guessed, it’s just so I don’t have to buy another headphone cable. Purely for convenience. Unless you’ve got a fully differential amp, there’s no advantage in sound quality to a balanced connection; it’s (usually) just louder.

 

[earmonger]

Curious about what kind of PC you are using. If it is a recent MacBook Air it not only has a very good DAC but also senses headphone impedance and may not even need an amp.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/108351

Don't go crazy on the DAC/Amp spending front. Get something like the Megatron or an under-$200 Topping or FiiO or iFi or whatever and see if you hear a SIGNIFICANT improvement. Or -- with volume matched -- any improvement at all.

 

[megabigeye]

When you see that something like this is available to purchase, it is easy to then assume there is a benefit by using it.

This should be your mantra while reading anything on Head-Fi! Seriously. Every product you read about should be treated with a great deal of skepticism.

I agree with @BS5711: temper your expectations. Don't expect night and day differences between amps and DACs because they likely don't exist. In fact, a lot of the time there are no differences at all. As @earmonger has said, the headphone output on Macs are very good and have been for a long time (I had a 2005 Mac Mini that I thought sounded just as good as a dedicated, audiophile-approved DAC/amp); I would imagine that some other manufacturers have caught on by now.

Balanced is a gimmick. I'll differ from BS5711 and go as far as to say that there is no audible difference (other than volume) between single-ended and balanced. If there is an actual difference (other than volume), then you should stay away because it means one of the outputs has been borked in some way.

To answer your initial question (whether or not an amplifier simply makes things louder or makes them sound "better"): it's not so simple. Ideally, it'd just make things louder. But things aren't always ideal. It depends on the amp and, um, non-amp that you're comparing (uh, well, everything that you can plug a headphone into has an amp of some sort, pretty much by definition). Is the "non-amp" complete junk with high noise floor, whacky frequency range, audible distortion, and/or high output impedance? If so, then yes, a decent amp will make a difference. But if the non-amp has noise and distortion that are below audibility, a flat frequency range, and reasonably low output impedance, then no, an amp won't make anything sound better other than being louder. In fact, many tube amps are technically worse than, say, an iPhone dongle, in pretty much every metric other than power/voltage (a.k.a., volume)... but a lot of people prefer that sound anyway (or think they do, because, as BS5711 points out, the differences are often much smaller than they like to imagine).

 

[BS5711]

Balanced is a gimmick. I'll differ from BS5711 and go as far as to say that there is no audible difference (other than volume) between single-ended and balanced.

I was trying to not sound so negative on everything and to acknowledge that there might be a very subtle difference with some combination of gear since technically the specs usually favour the balanced output ..... a stretch looking for possibilities I grant you and I agree with you entirely that they will sound the same

We are on the same page and I completely agree with your opening line which is unfortunate but more reality that pessimistic I believe.

 

[megabigeye]

You just speak the truth and I'll back you up.

(Actually, I won't. I really don't want to get sucked into another Head-Fi conversation. I mostly just wanted to use a Luther gif.)

 

[ScubaMan2017]

@megabigeye .... Heh! Loved that GIF. To @Phonio Maximus ...you'll be satisfied with your HD6XX cans. Mine outlasted my Sony MDR7510 (bloody things have a shorted-out wire in the headband). I have had bad luck with the wiring integrated into the headband (my Beyerdynamic DT800 might cack out at any time). There's aftermarket earpads when its time to replace them (if you go with plastic-leather ones, expect it to change the listening experience).
The only issues I had with the Massdrop (DROP) HD6xx was the cable itself. Eventually, I had to replace the cable. I didn't go down the balanced cable route... I simply cannot tell the difference. Singled-ended is fine for me.
I drive mine using Schiit Audio kit. Happy with the results. Welcome to the forum, eh.