[Saeglopur]

I'm looking into getting a real audio set up. My current stuff is just some M-100s and a yamaha reciever. I'm wanting to get some LCD2s or HD800. I can't really decide between the two because I cant compare them easily, no where nearby has the 800s and the only place that has LCD doesn't even have HD700 and vise versa. I listen to a wide range of music from classical to metal to folk. I know I like the LCDs and I really liked the 700s but I still want to try out the 800s.
 
On to the amps. I've looked around the forums here for stuff and I've kinda picked through recommendations and The Burson Soloist SL seems likea good choice for either headphone as a starting amp. I've also looked into the Magni/modi or Asgard/modi for more affordable options. Would anyone recommend a DAC for use with the SL, and if its a good idea would the modi be ok? I'm on a tight budget since the headphones will use up my money. The SL is pretty much max for budget. The HAP-100 looks pretty good too but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere.
I read that the HD800s bass is great in "lower frequencies at about 640ohms" and I have no idea how frequencies and ohms work together and translate. I didn't really research that a ton because I have no idea what to look for so if anyone has the time/patience to explain it or even post a link to something.
 
I know a lot of you will probably tell me there are lots of posts with this info, but I definitely have looked around and I'm just looking for some explanations and recommendations.

 

[billybob_jcv]

I suspect what they are talking about on the HD800 @ 640 Ohms is that the Sennheiser's impedance peaks to over 600 Ohms at the resonant frequency of the driver, which is ~100 Hz, right in the middle of an important bass region. That means you better have an amp that supports that kind of very heavy load - something that will bring many amps to their knees.

 

[Head Injury]

The Modi will work fine with either the Burson or the Magni. Either amp will be fine as well. Don't worry too much about the amp and DAC. If a DAC is changing your sound much it's faulty or intentionally underperforming. Amps will sometimes sound different because they're interacting directly with the headphones, but while the HD800 and LCD-2 are both relatively challenging headphones to amp for different reasons, none of the amps you're looking at will have a problem with either.
 
As for frequencies and ohms, take a look at this visual aid. In the impedance graph you can see that the HD800's impedance increases from around 300 ohms to 600 ohms at 100 Hz, then back down again. The peak is called the resonance frequency, where the driver oscillates the most. Most headphones have one, with the exception of planar magnetic drivers like the LCD-2. This really isn't a concern except in very specific instances, but it certainly doesn't mean better bass.
 
There are two instances where in can cause problems, and both are the result of a high amp output impedance: increased volume at the resonance frequency due to voltage division, and increased distortion around the resonance frequency and bass roll-off due to reduced electrical damping. The effect is based on a ratio of output impedance to headphone impedance, so the HD800's high impedance negates most of the effects. You would need an output impedance around 30-40 ohms to make an audible difference, and all the amps you're looking at have less that 1 ohm.
 

I suspect what they are talking about on the HD800 @ 640 Ohms is that the Sennheiser's impedance peaks to over 600 Ohms at the resonant frequency of the driver, which is ~100 Hz, right in the middle of an important bass region. That means you better have an amp that supports that kind of very heavy load - something that will bring many amps to their knees.

600 ohms is an easier load than, say, 30 ohms from the perspective of the amp. Higher impedance lowers current and distortion, and typically raises the clipping point so you get more voltage as well. The only problem is volume, because a high impedance load gets less power from the same voltage. In the HD800's case volume is already taken care of by the headphone's sensitivity, otherwise all the frequency response graphs you see would have a massive dip at the resonance frequency. As long as the amp is capable of driving the HD800 to the right volume, and a LOT of amps can do so, the only remaining concern is output impedance.

 

[Saeglopur]

  The Modi will work fine with either the Burson or the Magni. Either amp will be fine as well. Don't worry too much about the amp and DAC. If a DAC is changing your sound much it's faulty or intentionally underperforming. Amps will sometimes sound different because they're interacting directly with the headphones, but while the HD800 and LCD-2 are both relatively challenging headphones to amp for different reasons, none of the amps you're looking at will have a problem with either.
 
As for frequencies and ohms, take a look at this visual aid. In the impedance graph you can see that the HD800's impedance increases from around 300 ohms to 600 ohms at 100 Hz, then back down again. The peak is called the resonance frequency, where the driver oscillates the most. Most headphones have one, with the exception of planar magnetic drivers like the LCD-2. This really isn't a concern except in very specific instances, but it certainly doesn't mean better bass.
 
There are two instances where in can cause problems, and both are the result of a high amp output impedance: increased volume at the resonance frequency due to voltage division, and increased distortion around the resonance frequency and bass roll-off due to reduced electrical damping. The effect is based on a ratio of output impedance to headphone impedance, so the HD800's high impedance negates most of the effects. You would need an output impedance around 30-40 ohms to make an audible difference, and all the amps you're looking at have less that 1 ohm.
 

600 ohms is an easier load than, say, 30 ohms from the perspective of the amp. Higher impedance lowers current and distortion, and typically raises the clipping point so you get more voltage as well. The only problem is volume, because a high impedance load gets less power from the same voltage. In the HD800's case volume is already taken care of by the headphone's sensitivity, otherwise all the frequency response graphs you see would have a massive dip at the resonance frequency. As long as the amp is capable of driving the HD800 to the right volume, and a LOT of amps can do so, the only remaining concern is output impedance.

 
So output impedance is coming from the amp which doesn't matter because the asgard has a 2ohm output impedance? How can you tell what Hz is at and all of that stuff? The HD800s nominal(?) impedance is 300ohms according to the Senn website, but how do you  know what you have for ohms and Hz? I'm trying not to sound completely stupid haha. Do amps have any control over either, or is the volume what controls that? I guess a better question might be what does volume do? Obviously increases volume but why is that? Is it like an increase in Hz or something? Sorry for all these questions, I'm just hoping to learn more about all this so I can understand why and how amps and pre amps and dacs work.

Do you have any comments on a decision between the two headphones? Im assuming the 800s are super comfy like the 700s at least when compared to the LCDs since those are nice and hefty. I read that the 800s are a neutral headphone if I remember? And the Audeze I can't say I've done many review readings but I hear they are a little deeper and richer. But I suppose a lot of this is subjective.

 

[Head Injury]

   
So output impedance is coming from the amp which doesn't matter because the asgard has a 2ohm output impedance? How can you tell what Hz is at and all of that stuff? The HD800s nominal(?) impedance is 300ohms according to the Senn website, but how do you  know what you have for ohms and Hz? I'm trying not to sound completely stupid haha. Do amps have any control over either, or is the volume what controls that? I guess a better question might be what does volume do? Obviously increases volume but why is that? Is it like an increase in Hz or something? Sorry for all these questions, I'm just hoping to learn more about all this so I can understand why and how amps and pre amps and dacs work.

Do you have any comments on a decision between the two headphones? Im assuming the 800s are super comfy like the 700s at least when compared to the LCDs since those are nice and hefty. I read that the 800s are a neutral headphone if I remember? And the Audeze I can't say I've done many review readings but I hear they are a little deeper and richer. But I suppose a lot of this is subjective.

 
Hz is hertz, a measurement of frequency or the speed at which something vibrates/oscillates. The sounds we hear are waves in the air, with an amplitude and a frequency. The frequency determines pitch, the note, and obviously the amplitude determines volume. Headphones have to produce sound waves at pretty much every frequency up to 15-20 kHz (kilohertz) to adequately produce music. The frequency where its impedance is highest is the resonance frequency, where it's most likely to "ring" or oscillate without the signal telling it to. This creates distortion, unless the headphone's properly damped to prevent it from happening. A low output impedance does the damping on the electrical side.
 
The nominal impedance Sennheiser gives is its typical impedance, i.e. not the impedance at the resonance frequency. The only way to know how much that is and where is to measure it, the manufacturer rarely publishes this spec. InnerFidelity, the site I linked, and Headroom, billybob's chart, have measurements of impedance for a wide variety of headphones.
 
Volume is amplitude, like I said earlier. This is what an amp is designed to change, almost always by increasing the voltage (which is also the amplitude in an electrical signal, note that the AC power coming through your house's outlets has an amplitude (voltage) and frequency just like a wave!) Ideally it should not change the frequencies at all, only the amplitude. The frequencies change through distortion. Good amps have completely inaudible distortion up until they "clip", which is when they hit their limit on voltage and very rapidly rise above 1% distortion.
 
I'm probably just confusing you more, aren't I? I haven't even broken out any equations yet

 
I think you can tell from my signature which headphone I would recommend. I wanted to get an HD800 to try it, but it didn't get cheap enough to hit my goal this holiday season. I do know, having just equalized my LCD-2 to be as neutral as possible, that the HD800 would NOT be neutral to my ears, too much lower treble and not enough in the octave between 1.5 and 3 kHz. The LCD-2 needed quite a few changes, but the HD800 would need more. Which isn't to say it's not a good sounding headphone, or that people aren't allowed to prefer it. What is and isn't neutral depends on a person's own personal ears, and what a person likes depends more on their tastes than neutrality. I do have to say that neutrality sounds pretty great, though

 

 

[billybob_jcv]

I didn't know the HD800 was that sensitive - I shouldn't have assumed...

When I heard the HD800, I really did not like it. It sounded very different from what I have come to expect from Sennheiser. Much more emphasis in the treble than I like - but I definitely prefer warmer headphones (like the LCD-2). Of course, plenty of others disagree with me and consider the HD800 to be one of the finest headphones in the world.

I think one of the best, and most honest reviews of the HD800 on the 'net was done by Skylab:
http://www.head-fi.org/products/sennheiser-hd-800-headphones/reviews/3608

 

[Saeglopur]

   
Hz is hertz, a measurement of frequency or the speed at which something vibrates/oscillates. The sounds we hear are waves in the air, with an amplitude and a frequency. The frequency determines pitch, the note, and obviously the amplitude determines volume. Headphones have to produce sound waves at pretty much every frequency up to 15-20 kHz (kilohertz) to adequately produce music. The frequency where its impedance is highest is the resonance frequency, where it's most likely to "ring" or oscillate without the signal telling it to. This creates distortion, unless the headphone's properly damped to prevent it from happening. A low output impedance does the damping on the electrical side.
 
The nominal impedance Sennheiser gives is its typical impedance, i.e. not the impedance at the resonance frequency. The only way to know how much that is and where is to measure it, the manufacturer rarely publishes this spec. InnerFidelity, the site I linked, and Headroom, billybob's chart, have measurements of impedance for a wide variety of headphones.
 
Volume is amplitude, like I said earlier. This is what an amp is designed to change, almost always by increasing the voltage (which is also the amplitude in an electrical signal, note that the AC power coming through your house's outlets has an amplitude (voltage) and frequency just like a wave!) Ideally it should not change the frequencies at all, only the amplitude. The frequencies change through distortion. Good amps have completely inaudible distortion up until they "clip", which is when they hit their limit on voltage and very rapidly rise above 1% distortion.
 
I'm probably just confusing you more, aren't I? I haven't even broken out any equations yet

 
I think you can tell from my signature which headphone I would recommend. I wanted to get an HD800 to try it, but it didn't get cheap enough to hit my goal this holiday season. I do know, having just equalized my LCD-2 to be as neutral as possible, that the HD800 would NOT be neutral to my ears, too much lower treble and not enough in the octave between 1.5 and 3 kHz. The LCD-2 needed quite a few changes, but the HD800 would need more. Which isn't to say it's not a good sounding headphone, or that people aren't allowed to prefer it. What is and isn't neutral depends on a person's own personal ears, and what a person likes depends more on their tastes than neutrality. I do have to say that neutrality sounds pretty great, though

 

Fantastic response, If you have the time or any links I'd love to learn more. I've been getting more and more psyched up about all this stuff

 

[Head Injury]

I didn't know the HD800 was that sensitive - I shouldn't have assumed...

When I heard the HD800, I really did not like it. It sounded very different from what I have come to expect from Sennheiser. Much more emphasis in the treble than I like - but I definitely prefer warmer headphones (like the LCD-2). Of course, plenty of others disagree with me and consider the HD800 to be one of the finest headphones in the world.

I think one of the best, and most honest reviews of the HD800 on the 'net was done by Skylab:
http://www.head-fi.org/products/sennheiser-hd-800-headphones/reviews/3608

HD800 isn't terribly sensitive, I meant the volume between the 300 and 600 ohm frequencies. The 600 ohm frequency must have a higher dB/mW sensitivity, or you'd see much lower volume there on measurements because you're getting fewer mW and by extension volume. This is probably one reason why Sennheiser measures their sensitivity in dB/V. Most of their headphones have very big resonance frequencies like the HD800, and dB/V will apply equally to all frequencies regardless of impedance (at least when output impedance is low).
 
The HD800 is one of the finest headphones in the world, the frequency response just isn't to our liking

From a technical standpoint it performs extremely well; very low distortion, clean impulse response, lightning fast decay. It's just most of that really doesn't matter when actually listening to them, but frequency response does. It's the best engineered dynamic headphone ever made though, IMO and with the caveat that I don't know the first thing about actually engineering a headphone.
 
Frequency response can always be EQed at least. I'd still like to get my hands on one at some point and take a crack at turning it into a more comfortable LCD-2

 

  Fantastic response, If you have the time or any links I'd love to learn more. I've been getting more and more psyched up about all this stuff

The Sound Science forum is a great resource if you want to learn more about the technical side of the hobby. There are people there who will do a much better job explaining things than I can. Reading there is also a good way to save money before it's too late.

 

[b0000]

I'm not gonna give too much details since there's tons of comparisons between these two phones, but here goes...
 
HD800: Top tier soundstage and imaging. Extremely detailed. Listening to metal on it it though was definitely not the best thing i've ever done because of the treble, but music like two steps from hell and immediate music sounds godlike on it. Even though the bass and mids are neutral, it's definitely on the bright side because of the treble spike. And because of that treble spike, i constantly got reminded that i'm listening to headphones (not transparent) and sold it in favor of the lcd2. 
 
LCD2 rev2 w/ Fazor: Sounds very life-like. It's very transparent; it sounds like the music isn't being reproduced by a transducer, hence lifelike. Godmode vocals, bass, and midrange. Decent soundstage, but very good imaging. Treble energy is on my opinion, perfect. Always present, but never piercing. Can play any genre awesomely. It's a bit on the heavy side though, and the headband IMO is a disaster, though not as bad as the q701. This however fixed the issue for me flawlessly, except the part where you can only button the ends, but hey it works!

 

[Saeglopur]

  I'm not gonna give too much details since there's tons of comparisons between these two phones, but here goes...
 
HD800: Top tier soundstage and imaging. Extremely detailed. Listening to metal on it it though was definitely not the best thing i've ever done because of the treble, but music like two steps from hell and immediate music sounds godlike on it. Even though the bass and mids are neutral, it's definitely on the bright side because of the treble spike. And because of that treble spike, i constantly got reminded that i'm listening to headphones (not transparent) and sold it in favor of the lcd2. 
 
LCD2 rev2 w/ Fazor: Sounds very life-like. It's very transparent; it sounds like the music isn't being reproduced by a transducer, hence lifelike. Godmode vocals, bass, and midrange. Decent soundstage, but very good imaging. Treble energy is on my opinion, perfect. Always present, but never piercing. Can play any genre awesomely. It's a bit on the heavy side though, and the headband IMO is a disaster, though not as bad as the q701. This however fixed the issue for me flawlessly, except the part where you can only button the ends, but hey it works!

So it looks like I need both
I tried out some LCD2s a little bit ago and I loved them, very rich sounding compared to the HD700s I tried a few days ago. I love listening to Two Steps From Hell so I'm tempted to go HD800 first and try to snag myself some LCD2s later on but I'm torn because after listening to open back headphones I started appreciating bass a lot more since it doesn't drown out everything else.
 
Anyone have comments on amps?
 
My top choices right now are
Burson Soloist SL
Asgard2/modi schiit combo or Mjolnir
HAP-100
PS Audio Sprout (made in colorado where I live )
and I'm open to other suggestions that might work well with either headphone since I'm still undecided.

 

[yuri001]

 
So it looks like I need both
I tried out some LCD2s a little bit ago and I loved them, very rich sounding compared to the HD700s I tried a few days ago. I love listening to Two Steps From Hell so I'm tempted to go HD800 first and try to snag myself some LCD2s later on but I'm torn because after listening to open back headphones I started appreciating bass a lot more since it doesn't drown out everything else.
 
Anyone have comments on amps?
 
My top choices right now are
Burson Soloist SL
Asgard2/modi schiit combo or Mjolnir
HAP-100
PS Audio Sprout (made in colorado where I live )
and I'm open to other suggestions that might work well with either headphone since I'm still undecided.

I'm in the same situation as you are?!!
I'm thinking of Lyr2 for the amp, tubes are not your consideration?

 

[Saeglopur]

  I'm in the same situation as you are?!!
I'm thinking of Lyr2 for the amp, tubes are not your consideration?

Cool to find someone in the same situation!
Are you in between the headphones too?
 
I've thought about tubes but I'd like to go with a cheaper tube option first until I know whether or not I like them.
I looked at the Vali since its such a good price and the guys at Schiit reccomend the Valhalla 2 for the HD800 But I think the Lyr would be great as well.
 
Currently I'm thinking HD800 (I ended up pulling the trigger on them) with a Mjolnir and Modi, then grabbing a Vali to try out. And getting some LCD2s after my wallet recuperates from the HD800
My only issue is I'll need an HD800 cable with XLR for the Mjolnir and that will be around $160+ so I'm considering getting a Vali, Valhalla or Lyr and trying them out before I grab a Mjolnir. Any thoughts?

 

[yuri001]

 
Cool to find someone in the same situation!
Are you in between the headphones too?
 
I've thought about tubes but I'd like to go with a cheaper tube option first until I know whether or not I like them.
I looked at the Vali since its such a good price and the guys at Schiit reccomend the Valhalla 2 for the HD800 But I think the Lyr would be great as well.
 
Currently I'm thinking HD800 (I ended up pulling the trigger on them) with a Mjolnir and Modi, then grabbing a Vali to try out. And getting some LCD2s after my wallet recuperates from the HD800
My only issue is I'll need an HD800 cable with XLR for the Mjolnir and that will be around $160+ so I'm considering getting a Vali, Valhalla or Lyr and trying them out before I grab a Mjolnir. Any thoughts?

Actually, I'm going the other way, I bought a LCD2 last week! And thinking of buying a HD800 this spring. Normally, i did not like the Senn headphones somehow(but enjoying ie80) but then, I so want HD800 just because there are so many people praise it and i don't know. I mean after a few try, i found myself quiet enjoying it. 
 
I might wait for the new amp from Audeze? Only amp/dac i have is ifi nano dac and amp. I feel I need a decent more power amp and Lyr2's output is enough for most of headphones. But have to wait for couple of weeks for UK stock! I was thinking of Mjolnir but i think there are many options for that price range! 

 

[TK277]

Having listened to HD800 straight out of a box and an HD800 tricked out with audiophile cables and reverse-phasing, I still prefer the LCD house sound for rock. HD800 have unparalleled width, but the mids and bass are my cup of tea, which the LCDs cater to me. I listen to a lot of alt/space/mod rock and video game soundtracks. I don't do much classical, so I can't comment. I use the Mjolnir with my LCDs. I thought I read somewhere that Schiit uses LCD-2s to test their gear on, so it sounds like any Schiit will be a guaranteed match.

 

[Saeglopur]

Ok so I ordered the HD800 and I need advice on an amp. My main choices are-

Modi dac

Mjolnir
Nuforce HAP-100
Vali and magni (to compare solid and tube)
Burson soloist
And that's pretty much where I am so if you have any recommendations please let me know