[jenkinsontherun]

Hi all,

I have searched through related posts, but there doesn't seem to be a post about this topic directly. My question is simple: Why do cymbals sound so bad, like pin pricks, on most audio gear, particularly iems?

Am I just unlucky? Am I overly sensitive to cymbals?

Just listen to these two tracks, which I find to be key in describing what I mean:

The Eagles - New Kid in Town

and

Radiohead - Jigsaws Falling into Place

The above two songs are created by renowned artists, and produced professionally no doubt. Yet, even through my Tia Trio, among other less expensive IEMs that I own/have owned (sold because of this issue in the first place, mind you!), I can't get a proper cymbal reproduction.

If I were to engage my 'physics' mind, I would reason that a proper cymbal should have these traits, in order:

1. Stick impact
2. The main tone or body of the cymbal
3. A beautiful shimmer, or "shhhh" sound as the cymbals decay

Most IEMs cannot do this, and it's very frustrating. Even my Tia Trio, which is touted to have decent treble via the Tia driver, is honestly quite bad, and indeed sounds like pin pricks. My only headphone, the HD600, from a purely tonal perspective, is not bad at reproducing cymbals, in that it's not sharp like IEMs, but it is still rough around the edges on the notes.

Sorry if I am getting emotional, but it is honestly very frustrating. Am I asking for too much? Do I need high end gear, like a Susvara, to properly hear cymbals, despite cymbals being a basic tone in almost all music?

I have a feeling that many people have similar concerns, but never bothered to describe it. This is my intention in creating this post. I think cymbals are just as important, if not moreso, than bass and midrange, because there is an aspect of fatigue involved, and just the fact that cymbals are so prominent in music

Thanks!

 

[sander99]

What happens if you listen to loudspeakers? The same or does that sound better?

I ask because one problem with IEMs and headphones is that there is no objective flat for everyone with them. This because the sound of IEMs and headphones skip a part of your head related transfer function (hrtf, the filtering of sound by bending around your head and into your ears etc.) and different individuals have different hrtf's. So one possible explanation could be that your personal hrtf influences the sound of cymbals in a different and more pleasing way than the average IEM does. If that is the case then it should sound better over loudspeakers. (The sound of loudspeakers - like all sounds coming from a distance - is going through your hrtf.) If this is indeed the case then using EQ with your IEMs could be a solution.

 

[jenkinsontherun]

What happens if you listen to loudspeakers? The same or does that sound better?

I ask because one problem with IEMs and headphones is that there is no objective flat for everyone with them. This because the sound of IEMs and headphones skip a part of your head related transfer function (hrtf, the filtering of sound by bending around your head and into your ears etc.) and different individuals have different hrtf's. So one possible explanation could be that your personal hrtf influences the sound of cymbals in a different and more pleasing way than the average IEM does. If that is the case then it should sound better over loudspeakers. (The sound of loudspeakers - like all sounds coming from a distance - is going through your hrtf.) If this is indeed the case then using EQ with your IEMs could be a solution.

I have never listened to a pair of proper loudspeakers.

 

[redrol]

You need this type of tuning. Extended but a smoothish slope down and down. (Seek Etymotic style treble)

 

[bigshot]

There is no one proper EQ curve. Everybody is different as Sander99 says. Try experimenting with different EQ settings. Try lowering the frequencies around 6-8kHz and see if that smooths it out. It sounds like you've got a frequency spike somewhere.

 

[gregorio]

Why do cymbals sound so bad, like pin pricks, on most audio gear, particularly iems?

Because they’re not cymbals, they’re hi-hats!

If I were to engage my 'physics' mind, I would reason that a proper cymbal should have these traits, in order:

1. Stick impact
2. The main tone or body of the cymbal
3. A beautiful shimmer, or "shhhh" sound as the cymbals decay

True of cymbals but not necessarily of hi-hats. If hi-hats are played “closed”, as they mostly are on the recordings you quoted, then the physics demands pretty much only your #1, very little #2 and little/no #3 at all.

Occasionally you hear all three because there is an occasional splash cymbal. In the Radiohead song, there is a lot of ride cymbal during the instrumental bridge section. Ride cymbals have more of a ring sound and far more decay than closed hi-hats but not as much “shimmer”/“shhh” sound as splash cymbals.

Seems like you’re expecting the wrong type of cymbal sound to the ones actually being played.

G

 

[genefruit]

Try "The Sheffield Track Record" and listen to the two improvisations from Ron Tutt and Jim Keltner. These have been used as references for some time and it might help narrow the root issue.

 

[Rattle]

Dacs and amps (daps if that's your thing) make a huge difference with highs (cymbals, high hats as well)

 

[jenkinsontherun]

Because they’re not cymbals, they’re hi-hats!

True of cymbals but not necessarily of hi-hats. If hi-hats are played “closed”, as they mostly are on the recordings you quoted, then the physics demands pretty much only your #1, very little #2 and little/no #3 at all.

Occasionally you hear all three because there is an occasional splash cymbal. In the Radiohead song, there is a lot of ride cymbal during the instrumental bridge section. Ride cymbals have more of a ring sound and far more decay than closed hi-hats but not as much “shimmer”/“shhh” sound as splash cymbals.

Seems like you’re expecting the wrong type of cymbal sound to the ones actually being played.

G

Thanks for this. As a non-musician, I didn't know that they were different. I guess, since every reviewer I've read refers to "cymbals" to almost synonymous with treble, I assumed that those tones were all cymbals. Now I know!

To be clear, @gregorio , the opening of those two songs are hi-hats, and not cymbals?

 

[gregorio]

To be clear, @gregorio , the opening of those two songs are hi-hats, and not cymbals?

Correct.

Specifically they are “closed” hi-hats, hence no decay. Later in the Eagles track you can hear the last beat of the bar played with the hi-hats “half open”, so those beats have some decay/“shhh” sound but the first three beats of each bar are still with the hats closed. This is quite common in traditional rock/pop.

G

 

[redrol]

Who the F listens to music to hear high-hats and cymbals for that matter. I feel like this all came from reviewers getting obsessed with this stuff, not actual people that listen to music.

 

[gregorio]

Who the F listens to music to hear high-hats and cymbals for that matter.

Drummers, composers, other musicians, anyone interested in how music works and recordings are put together and pretty much anyone else, because if you were to take them out, the vast majority of rock/pop genres would sound significantly different.

There are many different types of cymbals and many hi-hat patterns which are often defining features of various genres.

G

 

[jenkinsontherun]

Who the F listens to music to hear high-hats and cymbals for that matter. I feel like this all came from reviewers getting obsessed with this stuff, not actual people that listen to music.

I do, seriously! I fully agree with @gregorio above. Just think about it. Cymbals/hi-hats deal with fatigue, the beat of the music, and deal with excitement factor. Poor reproduction of them can easily ruin the audio experience. Conversely, bass is, in my subjective opinion and in my personal listening eperience, concretely less important than cymbals/hi-hats, and I think the iconic HD600 supports this.

Add to that the outright ubiquity of those tones, even in innovative albums like Daft Punk's R.A.M., which features a real drum kit, and great diverse use of cymbals/hi-hats.

 

[Rattle]

I personally love drums and cymbals. Some recordings have really crap sounding high hats and cymbals especially recent modern recordings. The crash and decay of high hats and cymbals and certain notes of instruments is part of what makes music beautiful to witness. Plankton, microdynamics and transients all play a part.

 

[redrol]

Drummers, composers, other musicians, anyone interested in how music works and recordings are put together and pretty much anyone else, because if you were to take them out, the vast majority of rock/pop genres would sound significantly different.

There are many different types of cymbals and many hi-hat patterns which are often defining features of various genres.

G

Thats like 1 of 10,000 people! LOL Ask normies about high-hats and cymbals and you will likely get an answer like, I don't like them to hurt my ears and thats about it.