[eyeteeth]

My Anyone have no surge protection? thread evolved in the real world (audio, power products, real world,...um we won't go there thanks!) to my borrowing a pair of boxes from my very good nearest dealer. As I went off topic I started this thread just to share what I've heard with my stuff through my ears. Not reviews, nothing definitive, just a personal opinion as I try to determine what suits me most.

The following where the posts that led to this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth I've BORROWED an all in one box from my local dealer. As I said earlier I do want a detachable power cord and listened/compared a PS Audio UPC200 and APC H15 hooked up to a McIntosh CD player, McIntosh amplifier set up, driving full range Triangle speakers. Prior to this I was looking at the UPC200 vs the Shunyata Hydra 4 or 6 but I took the opportunity to listen anyway. The dealer said they were suprised that the APC was OK sounding considering it was from a computer surge company. I think it's a glorified Brickwall? I have one for TV, etc. Audio stuff into a Shunyata Guardian. Comparing there wasn't much difference between the H15 and the UPC. I thought the UPC a bit fuzzier with looser bass, the APC sounded a bit clearer with tighter bass. But then I'm not familiar with the McIntosh/Triangle gear although I've heard them before. They sounded noisy to me on both occasions. (In hindsight a tougher load speaker would have been a better test). So I took the APC home, if I like it I buy it. I plugged in my amp alone and hated it. Definitely softer and veiled! I prefered the Guardian. I went back and forth a bunch of times and the hate diminished until I wasn't so sure. Now I've plugged eveything that can reach into all 12 outlets and will do some listening over the coming days. I'll just swap amp and phonostage back and forth. It is a smart little bugger. I might even keep it as a replacement for the Brickwall and continue the search for an audiophile grade box.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth All plugged in and (I do seem to play the same few songs when listening to gear)..... Pot Kettle Black (vinyl) by Wilco sounded slightly warbled in vocals and sibilant. Or could it have always been so but now more clearly revealed? Swap back to Shunyata and warble is gone, a touch sibilant. Witchita Lineman (vinyl) cover by Cash, no warble through APC, it seems a little lighter sounding. Shunyata a little darker, more normal. The Shunyata is my normal. Yes I shall continue to update hourly for 5 days. Anyone can chime in about anything at all related to this as it will help me stave off complete surrender to audio-psychosis!

Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker Plugging everything into my PS Audio P500 was like taking drapes off of my speakers. The improvement is breathtaking. All audio-psychosis aside, it was like when I went from a Pioneer pre-amp to a McIntosh, and before that, going from my Adcom amp to my Cary. Huge upgrade! But then again, I have 55 year old 2 wire in my apartment. People who have newer decent power might not notice the difference as much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth Yes I'm also thinking that components with a solid power transformer or whatever are less affected by power conditioning. I may borrow the UPC as well as I have to go there to pick up some $12 tubes that their tech guy says he likes much more than the $60 Mullards that he hates which others love...which he said I can buy as well with a laugh. They do have the Shunyata Hydra but it's the biggest model and so had not considered due to price. It would be interesting to hear though just to borrow. Audio-psychosis for me is when tricks of the mind happen as the component isn't distinguishing it's self as clearly better but also not clearly worse. The bottom line on the APC is that unless it's an improvement it goes back and so far it's losing. EDIT: I borrowed the PS Audio UPC200 also but haven't listened through it yet. I think I know why I prefer the Guardian, because it doesn't screw with the sound. I has no filtration! Just a MOV with LED to let you know when it has taken too many hits and needs replacement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.PD I just use a Monster HTS2000 MKII. It handles the phone line to my DriecTV box as well as all the other stuff. Computer is plugged into an APC UPS thingy. I haven't had lightning strike in years. The one I had blew and old TV and a microwave. The TV cost me nothing to repair (there was an automotive type fuse blown), and the microwave cost me 50 bucks to repair (probably the same kind of fuse, but I took it to a shop)

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth The dopey thing is that I only just realized (*epiphany*) that I had been enjoying my music for more than a year with the juice straight from the wall no sweetener. No wonder with the AC "conditioned" it sounded weird to me. I haven't listen to the UPC200 yet, it's still in it's box beside my rack. My dealer said the UPC200 is lousy as is the Shunyata Hydra. They prefered the less expensive APC. Welcome to bizarro world. I'll just have to whip out the Q-tips and decide for myself. (Off topic but isn't it great hearing totally, completely expensive speakers that you hate. ATC's, for practical purposes, zero distortion/zero colouration has ruined me for ordinary (10K+! ) audiophile stuff). One odd thought occured to me which I'll phone my insurance company and ask about is equipment replacement. How much extra a month to be covered for exploded equipment from misfortune? I had this with camera equipment a bunch of years ago. I'm saying if conditioning boxes under a grand are worse than unsweetened juice and extra insurance is just a few bucks a month, I may get an audiophile grade power bar like the BPT's PPC (Pure Power Center) or PS Audio's Juice bar. I'm welcoming to anyone pointing out the error of my ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.PD To be honest about the Monster thing I use. It is supposed to clean up the power a bit. I couldn't tell the difference on my audio equipment. But I have low end audio. It did make my TV picture a bit better. Blacker blacks and a wee bit sharper. If you like the sound better raw, go with raw. I think the value of filtering depends more on how bad your electricity is than anything else. You must have good juice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth Apparently so! Who'd have thunk it! When I recognized that the Shunyata Guardian was essentially doing nothing, the APC was doing lots and I prefered the sound of "doing nothing", it was a realization. But it isn't over yet. I've still have to try the UPC vs nothing vs APC. The APC is cool though letting you know how much current is passing and what percentage of it's capacity is being used. I like it's claimed electronic and physical separation of the twelve outlets into four banks. It's documentation sucks bad though. It doesn't tell you anything, it's like a sales pitch. What is APC's method of surge protection? I have no idea, they don't say!

Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker The thing with the P300/500/600/1000 from PS Audio is that they is a power regenerators. Although they do have filters and AC protection, I would think that the fact that all you are getting out of the outlet is pure 117V 60Hz brickwall voltage, it shouldn't have any negative effect on the sound (at least that's what I concur). The improvement should be quite positive being that fluctuating voltage out of the wall (daytime power grids, refrigerators, microwaves) definitely is going to effect the output of components. If vibration effects quality output, then think about voltage drops or peaks. Again, one can bring up the fact that there are thousands of feet of wiring between your electric company and your wall outlet, and only 4 or 6 feet from the wall to your components. Even though there is a considerable difference in sound quality (IMHO) when using a high quality PC (a whole 'nother discussion) I believe that is due more to a PC's insulation from RFI and the quality of the metal purity when laying along side and on top of 20 interconnects and other PC's. But...this is a thread about surge protection and not power, however some units do come with both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth The P300/500/600/1000 and battery attached version of the APC I'm trying (H15-no UPS/S15 UPS) seem like two approaches to a similar problem, voltage fluctuation and failure. Maybe the APC is leaning in favour of protection and the PS Audio in favour of sonics. I did read the Stereophilr review of the APC S15 which had mammoth mono block amps hooked up to it when they yanked the plug from the wall and all was well. I'm so bored of the "thousands of feet of wiring between your electric company and your wall outlet", I'm usually too lazy to make a thousands of feet of water pipe and personal water filtration in the kitchen analogy. One of the things I'm going to do is plug my amp straight into the wall with the Nordost Vishnu and hear the results. Those two are in love! Here's a question: if a power conditioner, especially a regenerator, is working well, then it shouldn't matter the quality of cord attaching it to the wall outlet? As long as it's sufficient gauge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by velogreg I have often wondered. Isn't it a bit self defeating to spend alot of money on fancy aftermarket power cords then introduce a surge protection component in the flow? Wouldn't the surge protection power strip degrade the quality of the juice? At what point, quality or price, should you not go below or risk suffering on signal quality down the line?

Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker Of course. As long as it is a sufficient guage and has adequate shielding, then a high priced cord would be a waste. I posed this question to the engineers at PS Audio (already knowing full well the answer), asking why they don't offer one of their own $100 power cords on a $2100 unit, and the answer they gave me is the one posed here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth I've pulled this off topic and think it's best for me to start a different thread as I have now listened to the various gadgets.

 

[eyeteeth]

BEGIN RAMBLE:

So....I did listen through the UPC200.

Trying to be logical about it all, the first thing I did was arrange everything with outlets facing me for easy plugging/unplugging. I first compared the Guardian to the APC. APC to UPC200. Both those to the wall's outlet (amp only).

I'm going to listen and compare more and return one or both Tuesday. The APC did improve it's standing. It is most certainly a clarifier compared to the Guardian and UPC200 which are closer alike than I would have guessed. The wall is interesting, it's softer (more natural?) with a smaller soundstage but maybe more 3D(?!). I'll be trying that again as it was kind of odd. They're each only artificial representations anyway.

As for the "clarifier" (APC) I don't know if it's a false clarity or it removed more noise than the others. The UPC200 had the same slight fuzziness in comparison I heard at the dealers.

I'll do some more real world listening-I was turning up Coldplay's modern mastering sounding X&Y through the "clarifier" and well it's a bit of an S&M trip with equal amounts of pain and pleasure.

The only other things I listened to were Dylan's 'Tell Me That It Isn't True' from 'Nashville Skyline' and 'The Man Comes Around' LP's opening track and 'The First Time Ever I saw Your Face' which incidentally was what caught my attention when I first plugged the Nordost Shiva power cord into my amp a week ago. That Shiva has been replaced with a twice the gauge Nordost Vishnu. I never recognized the sound of the room and the reverberations of voice of that song or the buzz of strings during two opening strums of 'Witchita Lineman' until the Nordost went in. Doubters will say I was psychologically looking. Funny then that I never heard to such an extent the other hundred times I listened, sometimes with new gear and psychologically seeking then as well.

These new things apparent are like footnotes in a historical account. I do question if they are essential to the musical event or not. More detail isn't really what I'm after but the APC is delivering that a bit. It is definitely a few shades lighter than the other two. I should mention that the Shunyata Diamondback PC used on all three to connect to the wall (Guardian has a captive Diamondback) is a so called noise reducer or something like that. In the past I had one, couldn't hear it, I added another and liked the affect very much, relaxed and mellow. Then I added a third and it was like someone installed a treble knob on the system and turned it counterclockwise...I wanted to fetch a fog horn to guide ships safely into harbour.

And speaking of cords I did compare the APC's stock cord to the Diamondback. I was told that when asked, the APC folks said it wouldn't matter so long as sufficient gauge etc were met and that's what I was hoping for, for considerable savings. Well they were wrong. The APC H15 is responsive to what cord is feeding it AC.

Preliminarily of course, but given the clarity factor I'd say the APC could give a Shunyata Hydra a run for it's money as clarity seems to be one of it's characteristics from what I've read. I want to compare them.

More another time.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth Trying to be logical about it all, the first thing I did was arrange everything with outlets facing me for easy plugging/unplugging.

The logical thing wasn't the common sense box arranging but the sequence of amp and phonostage listening between the different outlets. I just didn't bother describing the procedure.

 

[eyeteeth]

What possessed me to chose the title "Fooling with"?

Quote:

I was turning up Coldplay's modern mastering sounding X&Y through the "clarifier" and well it's a bit of an S&M trip with equal amounts of pain and pleasure.

Before shutting down last night I listened to a few songs from X&Y and realized I was getting satisfying results at a volume level much lower than I'm accustomed to. Ordinarily my speakers (84db) don't fully open up until just before 9:00 on the rotary volume knob. But via the APC, music sounded quite fine before that. Going up to 9:00 and sure there was that step up but it was without the usual insufficiency before getting there.

There's always a down side?:I noticed something else for the first time. With quiet music, like the openings of some of the Coldplay songs, and at this lower volume what was that very faint, annoying whine I could hear?! With head askew, like a cocker spaniel I once knew, I went in search and discovered it was my transport spinning. My first though was to blame the APC for introducing some bizarre electrical property to it to get it to sing so. Then thinking about it I thought this must be the result of the lowered noise floor I've read accounts of in every power conditioner/power cord review I've ever read. Sure I've read about it plenty but this would be my first really obvious experience of it.

Reading around a bit on things APC, they're of the objectivist audio camp and don't mind pointing out what they see as fuzzy science in other power conditioning products.

I'm thinking very favourably towards this unit but I still have to give it more listening. I need to do what I do often which is to play some hard music at roof raising levels and see if the "clarifier" is a benefit or a burden.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth I need to do what I do often which is to play some hard music at roof raising levels and see if the "clarifier" is a benefit or a burden.

I think I'll just listen to music tonight and tomorrow without doing any equipment comparisons and see if I enjoy. I'll use a DVD-Audio compilation I made that has about anything my heart desires on it from the Waterboys, Springsteen and Wilco to Mayhem, Burzum and Dimmu Borgir. It's just that you have to hit the skip button like 50 times to get to what you want.

I like these threads without any disagreements, so peaceful.

 

[DarkAngel]

Those APC H15 units are really cheap on the the web $200-250 for a 12 outlet balance power regenerator (compared to PS Audio, Blue Circle, BPT etc) but of course the parts used inside are more generic I'm sure.

The power regenrators (balanced power) are very energy inefficient and will at least double the power consumed by everthing plugged in overall compared to passive device like Shunyata Hydra or PS Audio UPC200.

I find the UPC200 has a touch of euphonic sweetening or warming of sound, but definitely better overall solution for quality sound than PSA ultimate outlets for me. Many people will like this sweetening effect.

The Shunyata Hydra 4 or 6 cost much more but have sharper detail and greater clarity vs UPC200, so depends what your system needs.

Also of course the AC cords used between conditioner and gear effect sound, UPC200 with silver AC cords will sound faster more detailed than Shunyata Hydra 4 with large guage copper cords etc.

 

[eyeteeth]

Well DA I'll tell you what I have right now...total ear fatigue!

I skipped through some of the tougher stuff in terms of brightness like Satyricon trying to get to the tonally sane Wilco but I just gave up.

It was fun at first, Pearl Jam opens the DVD-A, and I was praising the APC in my mind for it's speed and articulation. It was just plain fun with a capital F. It really does the job of lowering noise way beyond the UPC200. There's just one thing, it turns bright with prolonged listening (or it's always bright?). It's not obviously bright, just a little lighter. It may be the great detail that fatigues?

Now my dilemma is that my power cords are different and they're rather detailed Nordosts. Who to blame? As my first impression of the Nordost Shiva was of it's deepness, it's richness plus a little more detail as a side dish, I don't think I should point my finger too much there. The Nordost Vishnu is about the same with more weight. I noticed the APC to be lighter of tone right from the start.

It's a shame as the APC is really so admirable for what it does, it is kind of great and a steal for the price. I'd think it'd be perfect for lots of people not so already laden with detail. I've got detail that has simply crossed the line now. It's a subtle line but one that kills slowly but surely!

Too bad I'll be too busy tomorrow to do some cord swapping and A/Bing the UPC200/Shunyata again.

For a darkish system the APC would be amazing.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth It's a shame as the APC is really so admirable for what it does, it is kind of great and a steal for the price. Too bad I'll be too busy tomorrow to do some cord swapping and A/Bing the UPC200/Shunyata again.

I've plugged the audio stuff into the UPC200 and will go for it tonight, see if it fatigues.

Yeah the APC...

...it'll even tell you if your dwellings wiring is faulty!
I'm not for bells and whistles but it is amusing to see how much current is passing and what percentage of capacity is being used. I never got past 17%!

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth I've plugged the audio stuff into the UPC200 and will go for it tonight, see if it fatigues.

A spin through the DVD-A (it's 80 tracks BTW) through the UPC200 wasn't as nerve racking. I didn't get a chance to completely recover and ideally I'd like to repeat as closely as possible what I did, exactly the songs listened to again tomorrow. I'll try.

Radiohead's 'Everything In It's Right Place', despite being electronic, has always been an enveloping relaxed song. But too strongly backlit and it's wrong, too tense. Via the UPC200 it returns to normality as I know it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel I find the UPC200 has a touch of euphonic sweetening or warming of sound, but definitely better overall solution for quality sound than PSA ultimate outlets for me. Many people will like this sweetening effect. The Shunyata Hydra 4 or 6 cost much more but have sharper detail and greater clarity vs UPC200, so depends what your system needs. Also of course the AC cords used between conditioner and gear effect sound, UPC200 with silver AC cords will sound faster more detailed than Shunyata Hydra 4 with large guage copper cords etc.

That's very interesting and useful the cord switch on the UPC or Hydra determining how similar they are.

I've read a number of times the Furutech review at Positive-Feedback. It is suppose to have a sweetening affect as well. I had discounted it but now I'm more interested.

 

[DarkAngel]

It's hard to switch out Power Conditoners, since must power down audio system first, do switch and then power back up everything. Really needs few hours for everything to warm up and settle back in even if all gear has 200hrs use and fully broken in.

I do like the PSA UPC200 and use it in system 2, much bettter sounding than PSA Ultimate Outlets which I briefly owned few years ago and then sold them feeling they restricted dynamics too noticeably. I like that both pairs of outlets are fully isolated so you can seperate digital and analog gear with some effectiveness, much more versitile and cost effective product.

 

[DarkAngel]

Also it takes time with power conditioners to fully grasp what they do to the sound. Some of the very best most effective ones when they remove layers of grunge and haze may initially sound dull and relaxed compared to the distortion/glare you were used to......but after extended listening you realize all the detail and more is there just blacker background with more relaxed fluid smooth presentation.

 

[zdogg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel Also it takes time with power conditioners to fully grasp what they do to the sound. Some of the very best most effective ones when they remove layers of grunge and haze may initially sound dull and relaxed compared to the distortion/glare you were used to......but after extended listening you realize all the detail and more is there just blacker background with more relaxed fluid smooth presentation.

This is exactly my impression; I noticed this phenomenon recently with a (relatively low end) Monster HTS3500 versus no conditioning.

 

[DarkAngel]

ET
Did you hear about APC H15 before your dealer showed it to you?

At under $250 new on web could be fun just to play with and use for low power front end gear (CDP, DAC, Preamp, Headphone amp) and run power amp or integrated amp through passive unit like PSA UPC200 or Shunyata Hydra 4.........that way power inefficency of APC H15 regenerator is minimized since only low power gear are connected and little waste generated

Actually the APC H15 may not be a true power regenerator, they call it AVR (auto voltage regulation) which maybe different and may not waste/duplicate energy to same degree at balanced power unit??????

Also there is even cheaper APC H10 with almost same features as H15 but simpler display and lower power output (which is fine if you are using only for low power audio gear) for under $200 on web

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel ET Did you hear about APC H15 before your dealer showed it to you?

No DA I asked them what they had and they mentioned having just brought in the APC, which they were totally skeptical about, being from a non-audiophile based company. I think they went under the spell that had me when listening only short term and or they listened with equipment that wasn't highly resolving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel At under $250 new on web could be fun just to play with and use for low power front end gear (CDP, DAC, Preamp, Headphone amp) and run power amp or integrated amp through passive unit like PSA UPC200 or Shunyata Hydra 4.........that way power inefficency of APC H15 regenerator is minimized since only low power gear are connected and little waste generated Actually the APC H15 may not be a true power regenerator, they call it AVR (auto voltage regulation) which maybe different and may not waste/duplicate energy to same degree at balanced power unit?????? Also there is even cheaper APC H10 with almost same features as H15 but simpler display and lower power output (which is fine if you are using only for low power audio gear) for under $200 on web

APC has a lot of products I've learned. You may be confusing models. APC H15 is not a regenerator. It's just a conditioner/surge protecter that can be had for $289 & $350 new at Audiogon. Now available in black.

Add the battery back up and it's an APC S15 for an extra $1000.
Looks identical to the H15 but the bottom box is the battery I assume?
It won a Stereophile award after this review.

Link

Those lights can be lowered or brightened three steps either way or turned off entirely. Also it turns on gear attached one by one not all at once, which is cool.

I still think it's a great addition to the right system. You're right about it in an AV system, I'd bet it makes a big screen TV very clean indeed.

*******************
Me, I've got the UPC200 playing with the Vishnu to the wall and it's more to my taste. I consider the Vishnu to be high resolution rather than high detail as it isn't highlighting any area over another.

In terms of value, new, the Vishnu may not be worth the extra $320 at $650 over the $330 Shiva. But 2nd hand we're talking $200 vs $300-$350 and it's definitely worth the extra. I'll probably sell my Shiva.

 

[DarkAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth No DA APC has a lot of products I've learned. You may be confusing models. APC H15 is not a regenerator. It's just a conditioner/surge protecter that can be had for $289 & $350 new at Audiogon. Now available in black. ******************* Me, I've got the UPC200 playing with the Vishnu to the wall and it's more to my taste. I consider the Vishnu to be high resolution rather than high detail as it isn't highlighting any area over another.

OK add at Audiogon explains better exactly what the auto voltage regulation (AVR) feature doesn't do for APC H15

***********
The APC performs its voltage regulation by supplementing the existing voltage coming from the wall outlet. It does not use a mechanically driven variac (essentially a large, adjustable transformer), nor does it reconstitute the complete 60Hz waveform at 120V. Both approaches are used by other manufacturers, but APC rejected them. A variac, they determined, was too slow and could produce excessive overshoot when the line voltage recovers. And devices that reconstitute the full waveform are extremely inefficient, using much of the power they draw from the wall outlet to supply their own needs, even before considering the current required by the equipment connected to them. ************

So with that in mind APC H15 should not consume much more energy than audio gear draws from unit............so how do you sum up APC H15, are you going to keep it or do you like PSA UPC200 better?