[Pianist]

Quote:

He doesn't know.
 
There is just as high a likelihood that FitEar are using the Sonion 2389, but this is a moot point. The 2389 is Sonion's analogue to Knowles' ED-29689; they share the same overall design principles, armature shape, back volume, etc. Measured bare, without any additional modification, they perform remarkably similar to each other. Neither is better.
 
The real engineering behind the F111 is the titanium acoustic horn. It's designed to boost mid-to-high frequencies without the need for electrical underdamping of the driver. Even Mead Killion, founder of Etymotic, stresses the importance of a good, robust acoustic horn design for the maximum potential of a sound system, whether it be a hearing aid or insert earphone.
 
So yes, the F111 is almost twice the price of the ER4S, but there's a reason why. Precise machining of titanium costs money, and so does hand-made construction. The ER4S uses neither. This is not an attack on the ER4S; it is an excellent IEM, and is still one of the best in the world.

 
So the F111 doesn't underdamp the driver electrically, while ER4 does. Is that right? What is the advantage of not electrically underdamping the driver? Can you explain this a little more? You seem to know quite a bit about this stuff.
 
Also, are there any detailed measurements for the F111? From what I've read so far, it seems that the F111 is a very similar design to the ER4 with a very similar frequency response. Ok, but how about impulse response, CSD graph, square wave response, distortion levels and other measurements that tell us more about the actual sound quality? How can one possibly be sure that the F111 is any better than the ER4 at all without these objective measurements? Why would anyone serious about sound quality want to just blindly shell out all the extra money for something that, based on the information I've read so far (ok, maybe I missed something), is perhaps nothing more than just a different version of the ER4 with a somewhat different sound? It amazes me that people are completely ignoring the fact that it is a single armature with nearly identical response to the ER4, somehow still expecting it to sound better. Jeez. And if you think that you can just trust your own ears, have you forgotten about placebo and how powerful it can be?
 
Quote:

One question, though: Is it not possible to hear the bass and (somehow) also feel it? Are these two aspects mutually exclusive? I ask because the main reason I sold my F111 was precisely because of its rendering of low frequencies, which ultimately was not always fully convincing, at least not with quite a few albums. As I said before (elsewhere, I think), I kept reaching for my FI-BA-SS much more often, and the latter is by no means a bass-head's IEM.

 
How can you feel bass with headphones? It's impossible, unless you mean the physical vibrations of the headphones on your head, or IEMs in your ear canal. lol

 

[Oof Oink]

How can you feel bass with headphones? It's impossible, unless you mean the physical vibrations of the headphones on your head, or IEMs in your ear canal. lol

Huh? What else could he have possibly meant? Gotta say, this is a most awkward post.

 

[klfl]

I think he means the iems give a good sense of bass presence without intentional emphasis.

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

...Ok, but how about impulse response, CSD graph, square wave response, distortion levels and other measurements that tell us more about the actual sound quality? How can one possibly be sure that the F111 is any better than the ER4 at all without these objective measurements? Why would anyone serious about sound quality want to just blindly shell out all the extra money for something that, based on the information I've read so far (ok, maybe I missed something), is perhaps nothing more than just a different version of the ER4 with a somewhat different sound? It amazes me that people are completely ignoring the fact that it is a single armature with nearly identical response to the ER4, somehow still expecting it to sound better. Jeez...

 
Oh dear...

 

[Omphalopsychite]

Quote:

 
Also, are there any detailed measurements for the F111? From what I've read so far, it seems that the F111 is a very similar design to the ER4 with a very similar frequency response. Ok, but how about impulse response, CSD graph, square wave response, distortion levels and other measurements that tell us more about the actual sound quality? How can one possibly be sure that the F111 is any better than the ER4 at all without these objective measurements? Why would anyone serious about sound quality want to just blindly shell out all the extra money for something that, based on the information I've read so far (ok, maybe I missed something), is perhaps nothing more than just a different version of the ER4 with a somewhat different sound? It amazes me that people are completely ignoring the fact that it is a single armature with nearly identical response to the ER4, somehow still expecting it to sound better. Jeez. And if you think that you can just trust your own ears, have you forgotten about placebo and how powerful it can be?
 

 
Perhaps you should actually listen to the F111 and the ER4 and trust your own ears.
 
When I compared the F111 to the much more expensive and very highly regarded Frogbeats C4 CIEMs the difference was palpable. I sold the C4 (and lost a lot of money ), where was the powerful placebo effect when I needed it?
 
Meanwhile, the actual music that I listen to with the F111s is exquisite.

 

[zowki]

Perhaps you should actually listen to the F111 and the ER4 and trust your own ears.

Thats the thing, I'm not able to listen to the F111 unless I buy it.
I'd rather see some measurements before making the decision to buy. Measurements are an incredibly valuable addition to subjective reviews.

 

[Omphalopsychite]

Quote:

Thats the thing, I'm not able to listen to the F111 unless I buy it.
I'd rather see some measurements before making the decision to buy. Measurements are an incredibly valuable addition to subjective reviews.

 
Other than frequency response, AFAIK measurements are available for  relatively few IEMs so it sounds like your restricting your choices considerably. 
 
But I wonder how much one can actually tell about the sound from measurements which don't show glaring weaknesses. 
 
There are measurements of the Frogbeats C4s available on the web . What in those measurements would have helped me avoid the very expensive and frustrating experience of owning them? To me compared to the F111s, the C4s sounded veiled, with less clarity, less detail, less cohesion, and less well defined bass.  The differences weren't subtle, surely what I heard from the C4s would show up in the measurements.  If not, I would question the usefulness of the measurements.

 

[audionewbi]

This is a hard one, as much as I agree with Omph about the importance of trusting your ears however I agree with zowki on the importance of some objective reviews. FR chart provide us some key data on how the IEM is likely to perform however what it does not provide is how would the sound alter depending on the fitting/insertion. 
 
I have found out insertion impacts sound in IEM.

 

[Sauntere]

Hi guys,
 
I was looking on price japan and came across this model  Fitear AK100-111is.  
 

Is this the same model you are discussing here or it it a new and improved version ?​

 ​

Curious since i just bought what is labelled as the Fitear F111.​

 ​

What's the story ?​

 ​

Cheers​

 ​

Hmm... sorry i see this has been discussed before....​

 
 

 

[audionewbi]

This one is tuned to fit the iriver AK100. From what I understood this version has more bass. It is not clear whether the tweak is due to the cable or have they actually tuned the driver. 
Quote:

Hi guys,
 
I was looking on price japan and came across this model  Fitear AK100-111is.  
 

Is this the same model you are discussing here or it it a new and improved version ?​

 ​

Curious since i just bought what is labelled as the Fitear F111.​

 ​

What's the story ?​

 ​

Cheers​

 ​

Hmm... sorry i see this has been discussed before....​

 
 

 

[NIVEBL]

Quote:

Hi guys,
 
I was looking on price japan and came across this model  Fitear AK100-111is.  
 

Is this the same model you are discussing here or it it a new and improved version ?​

 ​

Curious since i just bought what is labelled as the Fitear F111.​

 ​

What's the story ?​

 ​

Cheers​

 ​

Hmm... sorry i see this has been discussed before....​

 
 

I think the different between F111 and AK100-111iS just the cable from 003 change to 001.Also,have some different of the accessories,such as the case.

 

[tomscy2000]

Quote:

So the F111 doesn't underdamp the driver electrically, while ER4 does. Is that right? What is the advantage of not electrically underdamping the driver? Can you explain this a little more? You seem to know quite a bit about this stuff.
 
Also, are there any detailed measurements for the F111? From what I've read so far, it seems that the F111 is a very similar design to the ER4 with a very similar frequency response. Ok, but how about impulse response, CSD graph, square wave response, distortion levels and other measurements that tell us more about the actual sound quality? How can one possibly be sure that the F111 is any better than the ER4 at all without these objective measurements? Why would anyone serious about sound quality want to just blindly shell out all the extra money for something that, based on the information I've read so far (ok, maybe I missed something), is perhaps nothing more than just a different version of the ER4 with a somewhat different sound? It amazes me that people are completely ignoring the fact that it is a single armature with nearly identical response to the ER4, somehow still expecting it to sound better. Jeez. And if you think that you can just trust your own ears, have you forgotten about placebo and how powerful it can be?

 
There are various reasons why people believe the F111 is "better" than the ER4 --- few of them are sound related. The main reasons for users' preference of the F111 are: (1) better fit, (2) easier to drive than the ER4S/B, and (3) seemingly better bass and instrumental separation. The third point is, of course, a matter of subjective perception/opinion. Objectively, if you want to talk distortion, I'm willing to bet that the F111 actually has marginally higher levels of distortion because of the distortion that a non-linear horn system will introduce. However, the effect should be minimal, as those titanium horns are precision-machined and resistant to external vibration. If you want to talk treble extension, there's an extremely good chance that the F111 actually has better overall extension properties because of the horn effect. If you want to talk tightness and speed of bass, then the F111 should also perform better because of the damping effect that I alluded to. Given an ideal amplifier with a near-zero output impedance (meaning the damping factor is sufficiently high for both cases), the F111 should provide much more solid sounding and faster bass than an ER4S, which as a metal-film resistor between the amplifier and the driver. People who believe their ARTA, CLIO, and DScope are the father, son, and the holy spirit may think that these things are not "innovations", but rather unnecessary costs for marginal improvement in bass and treble, at the cost of higher distortion! If you're in that camp, then so be it, but others may not think the same way.
 
You seem to be fixated on the fact that the F111 is not proven to be better than the ER4 even though it's much more expensive. FitEar did not proclaim that the F111 was "better" than the ER4; it is merely their take on an accurate sounding monitor, done their way. Yes, it does cost a lot more, but the reasons behind why it is much more expensive are what I've already stated: (1) 100% hand-made, (2) titanium sound path --- as I'm sure you know, labor and raw material are the key components behind the cost of products, marketing costs notwithstanding.
 
As of right now, there is only the graph that I managed to pull from Suyama's Twitpic (or whatever the heck he uses) account many months ago, before he pull the account completely offline. It shows that the FitEar Private 111-Ti (which I assume is the prototype for the F111) yields a superior, more accurate FR to the ER4S, when tested under the same testing conditions (FitEar uses a full Listen Inc. SoundCheck system). There have been no measurements of the actual F111. If I were to make a prediction, the final version should have more measurable bass, reflecting most peoples' listening impressions.

 

[NIVEBL]

Private 111 should be a CIEM of FitEar's lower level product.I see it on somewhere,but i can't find it on FitEar's page..

 

[tomscy2000]

Quote:

  Private 111 should be a CIEM of FitEar's lower level product.I see it on somewhere,but i can't find it on FitEar's page..

Yes, the Private 111 was a CIEM product, but it was discontinued when the F111 was introduced. Notice that the graph adds "Ti" to the end, though, so it's not the original product. That graph was posted by Suyama right before the F111 was released.

 

[IronLung]

Where I could find technical info about F111 iem (imp.)?