[Monsterzero]

Even though Ive been in this hobby for quite some time and have owned many different headphones,im still learning,so bear with me here....

Is there a headphone(that doesnt cost thousands)that....

Has a very wide sound stage
Has excellent imaging

But....

Isnt brutal on poor recordings and overly bright?

I was think about the various traits that are often contradictory to one another,and i couldnt think of such a headphone...and frankly if it does exist,I'd like to own it....

Help is appreciated!

 

[mufaafat]

Have you looked into the Sennhesier HD598? It's got what you want although they're open-back.

 

[Monsterzero]

I used to own The HD600 and they have next to no width in sound stage,and apparently have better imaging than the 598,from the few comments Ive read,so I could be mistaken.

When I say wide sound stage...im talking w-i-d-e...T1,HD800 wide without the brightness

Something that has HE-500 like tone,but with soundstage...willing to sacrifice some bass for the width,but thats kinda of a given.

I pretty much only am considering open backs

 

[Muinarc]

I'd say most of the Stax line can fit that bill, even the less expensive lines. Some people just plain don't like them but I've always like e-stats myself.

 

[Monsterzero]

  I'd say most of the Stax line can fit that bill, even the less expensive lines. Some people just plain don't like them but I've always like e-stats myself.

Electrostats have always intrigued me but dont they need some sort of special amp to drive them,an adapter or something?

Im looking for something that doesnt need a whole new set-up to drive.

 

[Muinarc]

Yes they either need an energizer like a Woo Audio Wee or a dedicated electrostatic amp. They're kind of a pain for that reason but they do soundstage well and are smooth in the treble.

 

[Monsterzero]

  Yes they either need an energizer like a Woo Audio Wee or a dedicated electrostatic amp. They're kind of a pain for that reason but they do soundstage well and are smooth in the treble.

yeah that kinda rules that option out,my wife doesnt share my enthusiasm for headphones like I do,and thats a massive understatement.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Even though Ive been in this hobby for quite some time and have owned many different headphones,im still learning,so bear with me here....

Is there a headphone(that doesnt cost thousands)that....

Has a very wide sound stage
Has excellent imaging

But....

Isnt brutal on poor recordings and overly bright?

 

Not on its own - you'll need a few tweaks.

1. AKG K702 with EQ to trim the treble peak

2. HD650 with Breainwavz HM5 angled earpads

Also, depending on how wide "very wide" is for you, this might not be achievable without a speaker in the room simulator that goes with some soundcards' virctual surround programs. Either of these two can make the image have decent front to back depth, with the cymbals not exploding next to your ears, and the HD650 will even have the vocals slightly more outside your forehead than the K702, but they're not going to image a drum roll going wider than your head and guitars pushed out much farther to the flanks of the drums, or at least, not without a DSP that will do so at the cost of depth and precision.

Personally, give up on absolute size of the image and always go with relative positioning accuracy. I might hear the cymbals around just past where my eyes are on the left-right plane, but if I hear them coming clearly from behind where the vocals are, that's good enough. I use the HD600 with the angled Brainwavz earpads.

 

[Monsterzero]

  Yes they either need an energizer like a Woo Audio Wee or a dedicated electrostatic amp. They're kind of a pain for that reason but they do soundstage well and are smooth in the treble.

Will a passive adapter+Stax Lamda get me where I wanna go?
 

 

 

Not on its own - you'll need a few tweaks.

1. AKG K702 with EQ to trim the treble peak

2. HD650 with Breainwavz HM5 angled earpads

When you mention EQing the K702,I can do that,but what regions specifically need to be EQed down?

Between the Stax vs K702 which will get me closest to what I described above?

For the record,while I currently own 4 vintage AKG headphones,I used to own the K7XX,which has been described as having a wide soundstage.The reason I sold them was because the soundstage(to me)was quite underwhelming.

That being said,am I chasing my tail with a K702 and be better off trying to convince my wife that while yes I'd like to get these Stax headphones,but BTW I need this fancy adapter thingy to go with them...on top of all the rest of my gear?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by monsterzero /img/forum/go_quote.gif

When you mention EQing the K702,I can do that,but what regions specifically need to be EQed down?

 

It has a plateau spanning 6000hz to 8000hz at the top, and roughly 5500hz to 8500hz are above where 1000hz is. You need to trim down the entire plateau level with 1000hz.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by monsterzero /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Between the Stax vs K702 which will get me closest to what I described above?

 

Stax would probably be slightly wider, but not by much. Chances are you're more likely to notice the smoohter but better extended treble and slightly less audible bass impact than the improvement in the imaging, especially if you can EQ out the treble plateau on the K702. Chances are if your problem with a narrow image has to do with how crappy the cymbals' positioning is relative to the other instruments, trimming that plateau is as good as it can get.

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by monsterzero /img/forum/go_quote.gif

For the record,while I currently own 4 vintage AKG headphones,I used to own the K7XX,which has been described as having a wide soundstage.The reason I sold them was because the soundstage(to me)was quite underwhelming

 

The problem is that subjective evaluations aren't just hard to communicate to others, and in headphone audio this is confounded by people who misunderstand things in a number of ways. In other cases it's how people get too disappointed by how small the imaging is, not understanding that people who claim the image is wide or deep or both is basically in comparison to other headphones, not speakers. In other cases, it's people who think that absolute size is more important than relative positioning, where you have for example those who claim Grados have the widest soundstage ever, when in fact there is nothing wide about hearing the cymbals to the extreme left and right or smack outside one's ears but there's a gap between L-C and C-R in the drum roll and the distance  the cymbals are at seem to suggest they are the flanks of drum set. I like Grados for that they are, but I already lost count of how many times I've had to explain that making it seem like Reed Richards is banging the drums with his stretchy arms reaching for the cymbals (and a stretchy foot kicking the pedal for the bass drum in front of the vocalist) does not make for a large soundstage.

 

In other words, I really don't give much credit to simple descriptions of how large the soundstage is. Pay attention to when reviews describe the accuracy of relative positioning of each instrument and the vocals.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by monsterzero /img/forum/go_quote.gif

That being said,am I chasing my tail with a K702 and be better off trying to convince my wife that while yes I'd like to get these Stax headphones,but BTW I need this fancy adapter thingy to go with them...on top of all the rest of my gear?

 

Personally, I'd just EQ the K702 if you have a good amp for them anyway. Otherwise, if what you're trying to do is integrate this into an existing speaker system (in which case one issue you might be having with the K702 and K7XX treble response relative to the bass is the output impedance on the headphone output of speaker amps), then skip the headphone amp and K702 for the Stax that can run off an adapter hooked up to speaker outputs.

 

[Monsterzero]

 

 

It has a plateau spanning 6000hz to 8000hz at the top, and roughly 5500hz to 8500hz are above where 1000hz is. You need to trim down the entire plateau level with 1000hz.

 

 

 

Stax would probably be slightly wider, but not by much. Chances are you're more likely to notice the smoohter but better extended treble and slightly less audible bass impact than the improvement in the imaging, especially if you can EQ out the treble plateau on the K702. Chances are if your problem with a narrow image has to do with how crappy the cymbals' positioning is relative to the other instruments, trimming that plateau is as good as it can get.

 

 

 

 

 

The problem is that subjective evaluations aren't just hard to communicate to others, and in headphone audio this is confounded by people who misunderstand things in a number of ways. In other cases it's how people get too disappointed by how small the imaging is, not understanding that people who claim the image is wide or deep or both is basically in comparison to other headphones, not speakers. In other cases, it's people who think that absolute size is more important than relative positioning, where you have for example those who claim Grados have the widest soundstage ever, when in fact there is nothing wide about hearing the cymbals to the extreme left and right or smack outside one's ears but there's a gap between L-C and C-R in the drum roll and the distance  the cymbals are at seem to suggest they are the flanks of drum set. I like Grados for that they are, but I already lost count of how many times I've had to explain that making it seem like Reed Richards is banging the drums with his stretchy arms reaching for the cymbals (and a stretchy foot kicking the pedal for the bass drum in front of the vocalist) does not make for a large soundstage.

 

In other words, I really don't give much credit to simple descriptions of how large the soundstage is. Pay attention to when reviews describe the accuracy of relative positioning of each instrument and the vocals.

 

 

 

 

Personally, I'd just EQ the K702 if you have a good amp for them anyway. Otherwise, if what you're trying to do is integrate this into an existing speaker system (in which case one issue you might be having with the K702 and K7XX treble response relative to the bass is the output impedance on the headphone output of speaker amps), then skip the headphone amp and K702 for the Stax that can run off an adapter hooked up to speaker outputs.

I use a Sansui 881 to drive all my headphones...its sole purpose is headphones.I use a Rogue Audio Cronos Magnum to drive my speakers,so one doesnt interfere with the other.

I do not know the exact specs of the headphone out of the 881,but is circa early 70s,and handles my K340s,K240 sextetts,HE-500 with zero problems with oodles of headroom.

so I can use either the Stax via adapter thru speaker out,or K702 via headphone out,unless im missing something.

Regarding my perception of imaging and soundstage...when I had my T1+WA2 combo the imaging was so precise it was distracting,and that was my only set-up at the time.I found myself dissecting a song,rather than enjoying a song.Now that im much farther along in the journey and have different headphones for different moods/styles of music,I wouldnt mind adding a "dissection" headphone back into the stable,just something not as strident as the T1.

There were times when i could swear i was hearing stuff(not just cymbal strikes) coming from near the tips of my shoulders on the T1....when I read the glowing reviews of the K7XX and its soundstage i thought"perfect",but it didnt come close to matching what I percieve to be "wide soundstage"

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
I use a Sansui 881 to drive all my headphones...its sole purpose is headphones.I use a Rogue Audio Cronos Magnum to drive my speakers,so one doesnt interfere with the other.

I do not know the exact specs of the headphone out of the 881,but is circa early 70s,and handles my K340s,K240 sextetts,HE-500 with zero problems with oodles of headroom.

so I can use either the Stax via adapter thru speaker out,or K702 via headphone out,unless im missing something.

 
The K340 and Sextett have a high nominal impedance, and planars are not affected by output impedance by as much as dynamic drivers (if anything, with OTL amps for example, low output power at low impedance is more of a problem than the impedance). The K7XX and K702 are a different story however. Try a Grado with that system if you can borrow one - if it totally sounds like a tin can, chances are the K7-- reacts similarly.
 
 
 
 

  Regarding my perception of imaging and soundstage...when I had my T1+WA2 combo the imaging was so precise it was distracting,and that was my only set-up at the time.I found myself dissecting a song,rather than enjoying a song.Now that im much farther along in the journey and have different headphones for different moods/styles of music,I wouldnt mind adding a "dissection" headphone back into the stable,just something not as strident as the T1.

There were times when i could swear i was hearing stuff(not just cymbal strikes) coming from near the tips of my shoulders on the T1....when I read the glowing reviews of the K7XX and its soundstage i thought"perfect",but it didnt come close to matching what I percieve to be "wide soundstage"

 
Well the T1 is high impedance headphone and the WA2 is an OTL amplifier, so there is absolutely no problems with that amp and headphone combo to start with. As much as the K7-- might not be as good technically, the thing is, compared to the T1+WA2, you have two things going against the AKG: first is the output impedance that is making its treble peaks even worse, second is how the WA2 from a technical standpoint wouldn't have any issues on a 600ohm headphone, but on top of that, it might even have been designed to roll off the treble to some degree, taming the peaks that the T1 has. Basically, the Sansui could be making the AKGs worse while the WA2 is making the T1 better, widening the gap between them than if for example you were using an amp that can do well enough with both, like the Lyr.

 

[Monsterzero]

   
The K340 and Sextett have a high nominal impedance, and planars are not affected by output impedance by as much as dynamic drivers (if anything, with OTL amps for example, low output power at low impedance is more of a problem than the impedance). The K7XX and K702 are a different story however. Try a Grado with that system if you can borrow one - if it totally sounds like a tin can, chances are the K7-- reacts similarly.
 
 
 
 
 
 

I actually own Alessandro Ms2e and my son has a pair of 80e and they both sound the polar opposite of a tin can,if anything I find them to be quite bass heavy thru my 881

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  I actually own Alessandro Ms2e and my son has a pair of 80e and they both sound the polar opposite of a tin can,if anything I find them to be quite bass heavy thru my 881

 
If that's the case there's a chance the K7-- might be reacting differently to the output impedance while the Grados are getting a boost, or​ you just don't like the sound of the newer AKGs. If you can look up comparisons by people who have the K340 and Sextetts and the newer ones that you have, and provided they have amps that do not have an issue with output impedance, ask them how similar they sound (try the K7XX and K702 or even the K712 threads). If they aren't as far off tonally and the imaging is even better on the new models, then the problem is output impedance.
 
If you can't get any feedback at all on that angle, might as well just get the Stax. At the very least, you'll have the Sansui's headphone output working to your liking with the older AKGs, and then the Stax adapter on the speaker output won't have the same issues as the newer AKGs.

 

[Monsterzero]

   
If that's the case there's a chance the K7-- might be reacting differently to the output impedance while the Grados are getting a boost, or​ you just don't like the sound of the newer AKGs. If you can look up comparisons by people who have the K340 and Sextetts and the newer ones that you have, and provided they have amps that do not have an issue with output impedance, ask them how similar they sound (try the K7XX and K702 or even the K712 threads). If they aren't as far off tonally and the imaging is even better on the new models, then the problem is output impedance.
 
If you can't get any feedback at all on that angle, might as well just get the Stax. At the very least, you'll have the Sansui's headphone output working to your liking with the older AKGs, and then the Stax adapter on the speaker output won't have the same issues as the newer AKGs.

Well TBH the K340s are quite....ummmm...bright...they make T1s sound veiled.I can only use them with old dark recordings("Eighteen"-Alice Cooper)anything with some sparkle the 340s are damn near unbearable.

The Sextetts on the other hand are one of the best kept secrets in this hobby IMO.Comparing the sextetts to the K7XX is not quite fair IMO

Do  you have any experience with the original Pioneer Monitor 10?

Digging thru some old threads on here folks say they at least matched,if not beat K702 for soundstage and imaging.

EDIT: I just put in an offer on the Pioneers,pretty cheap..if they dont float my boat I will prolly end up going with The Stax option.Any particular Stax that wont break the bank I should be looking for?