[Feanor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Langrath Do you think that anybody in cable forum is doubting that you hear differences in cables? Georg

Quite honestly, that is not an issue. The cable forum is about cables. The headphone forum is about headphones. People might do searches on the specific forums and thus miss this thread. That was my only point.
If the cable forum [in your view] has too many people biased towards cables making a difference, then this thread would show newbies browsing there that there is a group of people who think otherwise.

EDIT: Seems like the high powers have acted

 

[Nak Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by enemigo I found this article from audioholics during my search on this subject. I guess it's of some interest to the involved here. Knut

Some differences vs speaker cable that popped up in mind: a. we're driving miliwatts against various large impedance here - they could be more sensitive to cable properties than 'properly designed' speaker cable driving tens of watts into standard 4/8 ohms load (similarly (?) amp differences are also more noticable on phones) and b. many stock phones cables look suspiciously thin.

I did try regular 12/14 awg speaker cable vs one of the cheaper kimber vs very thick cardas. Can't hear any difference no matter how hard I focused - and that was non-blind. I'm no EE expert myself but those audioholics arguments made more sense (i.e. small change on cable properties play little role within audio / audible frequencies). Imho speaker cable discussions are almost closed.

Anyway I can understand if people want to spend 5-10% of their speaker budget for exotic cables to squeeze the last drop of performance. Phones cables' price to performance is a different story.

 

[enemigo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nak Man Some differences vs speaker cable that popped up in mind: a. we're driving miliwatts against various large impedance here - they could be more sensitive to cable properties than 'properly designed' speaker cable driving tens of watts into standard 4/8 ohms load (similarly (?) amp differences are also more noticable on phones) and b. many stock phones cables look suspiciously thin.

I know, the links dealt with hifi. I really am not sure what less power, higher impedance in drivers and thinner wires will result in. But if one reduce power and cable size equally, it shouldn't automatically mean there will be any theoretic differences at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nak Man Anyway I can understand if people want to spend 5-10% of their speaker budget for exotic cables to squeeze the last drop of performance. Phones cables' price to performance is a different story.

Is it still understandable to spend such sums if the changes it ammounts to is measured to be far below audible thresholds?

Knut

 

[Nak Man]

Well, one sample review's average is $200 per cable pair vs $50 of Belden 14 awg + locking plug ... but then the speakers most likely cost > $2-3k. So call it jewelry or anything that can add sparkle to the eyes (and for electrostatics probably real benefit) I'd still say reasonable, regardless of sonic benefit. I'm not talking about $3k cables for $3k speakers.

 

[Langrath]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor Quite honestly, that is not an issue. The cable forum is about cables. The headphone forum is about headphones. People might do searches on the specific forums and thus miss this thread. That was my only point. If the cable forum [in your view] has too many people biased towards cables making a difference, then this thread would show newbies browsing there that there is a group of people who think otherwise.

Yes, you are right of course. Logic is a horrible thing.

Georg

 

[rhfactor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by enemigo And the 2nd part of the face off (speakercable reviews)

Excellent links, enemigo. Thanks!

I think the fact that Zu Cables didn't send a review sample for measurement would be indicative of what rodbac has been saying, that the Zu Mobius most likely does color the sound, because it is constructed with either high L or C values, which we would not expect a cable to be created with (and certainly which would not be used during any part of the recording process.)

 

[mikeg]

I found comprehensive comparisons of cables described in a detailed review of cables that is published on Page 19 of Issue 34 of a periodical called "Hi-Fi+". This appears to be the latest issue of this British magazine, and the title of the article is "Blind Listening to Cables --- Can We Hear Differences, and If So, Does It Tell Us Anything?" The author is Roy Gregory.

 

[Asterix]

<deleteme>

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhfactor Excellent links, enemigo. Thanks! I think the fact that Zu Cables didn't send a review sample for measurement would be indicative of what rodbac has been saying, that the Zu Mobius most likely does color the sound, because it is constructed with either high L or C values, which we would not expect a cable to be created with (and certainly which would not be used during any part of the recording process.)

I have measured L and C with stock and Zu Mobius cable. The values are quite close, the Mobius has even lower capacitance.

 

[KZEE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhfactor Excellent links, enemigo. Thanks! I think the fact that Zu Cables didn't send a review sample for measurement would be indicative of what rodbac has been saying, that the Zu Mobius most likely does color the sound, because it is constructed with either high L or C values, which we would not expect a cable to be created with (and certainly which would not be used during any part of the recording process.)

Wow, you're drawing the conclusion that the Zu likely colors the sound based wholly on the premise that Zu didn't submit a sample for review? That's not very scientific and kind of a stretch, isn't it?

 

[rhfactor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KZEE Wow, you're drawing the conclusion that the Zu likely colors the sound based wholly on the premise that Zu didn't submit a sample for review? That's not very scientific and kind of a stretch, isn't it?

How can one possibly "draw the conclusion" that something "likely occurs"? Saying "I have concluded that it is a possibility" hardly concludes anything at all.

Ignoring this, I said that it's "indicative", not anything so strong as a conclusion. I merely find it slightly suspicious. You may think what you will of this.
Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ I have measured L and C with stock and Zu Mobius cable. The values are quite close, the Mobius has even lower capacitance.

Well, let's see what you said:
Quote:

Normally capacitance isn't responsible for a rolled-off treble, rather inductance. I couldn't measure the latter with my crappy multimeter because it's very low, between 40 and 55 microHenry, the Zu Mobius seems to have a slightly higher inductance. As to capacitance, here are the measured values: Stock (1.15 meter) ~290 pF Zu Mobius (1.0 meter) ~175 pF According to my experience you can't reduce the sonic differences with cables to brighter or darker; there are multifaceted shades of colorations, like with amps and source devices, which can't be measured with today's state of knowledge as to the cause for them.

OK, so you have noted that
(1) you used a "crappy multimeter"
(2) you couldn't get accurate values for inductance
(3) even if the values were identical, you wouldn't believe the cables sounded the same, because of some unexplainable factor

So, given (1) and (2), your measurements establish nothing; given (3), even if (1) and (2) weren't false it wouldn't matter to you since you wouldn't chalk it up to psychoacoustic effect even if someone produced identical frequency response graphs for the two cables. I don't think there is much to discuss, because you don't believe in empirical measurement anyway.

 

[Langrath]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeg --- Can We Hear Differences, and If So, Does It Tell Us Anything?" The author is Roy Gregory.

Do you know the summary with conclusions of article?

Georg

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhfactor Well, let's see what you said: OK, so you have noted that (1) you used a "crappy multimeter" (2) you couldn't get accurate values for inductance (3) even if the values were identical, you wouldn't believe the cables sounded the same, because of some unexplainable factor So, given (1) and (2), your measurements establish nothing;

Establish? What's your point? I've just measured inductance and capacitance, and the latter measuring values prove the assumption about the Zu Mobius having a particularly high capacitance wrong. The multimeter's «crappiness» only applies to the resolution with low inductance values, after all the closeness of both cables is recognizable, as well as the slightly higher inductance with the Zu Mobius. But you're free to prefer the unproven assumption of the Mobius' high capacitance if it fits your idea better.

Quote:

given (3), even if (1) and (2) weren't false it wouldn't matter to you since you wouldn't chalk it up to psychoacoustic effect even if someone produced identical frequency response graphs for the two cables.

True! I've never thought the perceived differences had to do with measurable frequency-response deviations. But of course it has to do with psychoacoustic effects, as all audio phenomena. I'm just convinced that it's not a placebo effect. The effect is absolutely consistent; no cable I own has ever changed its sonic characteristic, except for decent burn-in effects.

Quote:

I don't think there is much to discuss, because you don't believe in empirical measurement anyway.

Yes, I do believe in measurements if they correspond to the listening impression. Otherwise they just show that the fundamental criteria such as frequency response and electrical values are within acceptable tolerances for the intended purpose, nothing more -- just as with active electronic devices, where they don't reflect sonic differences either.

 

[JohnFerrier]

The following is the 1khz square wave response of HD600 (HD650s are probably similiar). A cable on a $30 pair of headphones will respond with a perfect square wave 20-20khz.

Do you really think you can hear minuscule cable differences with transducers distorting like this?


JF

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFerrier Do you really think you can hear minuscule cable differences with transducers distorting like this?

Yes!

Think of amps (or source devices, if you will)! How much do you think would they contribute to further signal distortion? Almost unmeasurably -- but audibly nonetheless. You can't pretend that once the signal had to go through a sound transducer it's so crippled that source, amp or recording doesn't matter anymore...