[squidman]

I have on and off not what I would call tinitis, but high pitched sounds when I am tired, hung-over, or otherwise indisposed. It comes and goes so I don't think it is tinnitus. Mostly comes with lack of sleep, have it now after 45 hour door to door flight from australia to norway.

On asking my GP, she advised me to stay away from noise-cancelling headphones. What is the science behind this, does anyone know? I had a family friend over a year ago and tried on his Bose qc25's with the noise reduction on, and it was a revelation. On the other hand, I don't want the next time I do the syd-norway route to damage my hearing, after all have iem's, and silicone plugs for swimmers etc. In any case I don't find the plane noise that bad...I just don't sleep on those 9 and 11 hour flights. I catch up 4hrs sleep at the airport hotel.

Still, begging the question...how bad can they be? Would have thought with noise-cancelling being all the rage, someone would have answered that by now.

Have even considered ear-pro a la 3m with 60db rating, the maximum....for airport workers and heavy industry..I did actually fly once with 3m ear-muffs and iems inside. Not super comfortable.

Over and out headfier's...

 

[squidman]

Not trying to start a flame-war or similar here, but when my GP tells me to stay away from noise cancelling headphones, I listen. Then again we could be misinformed. So looking for second opinions.

 

[mattiav]

If you want to know, ask an audiologist - not a generalist physician. I’m not aware of any research even suggesting noise cancellation can cause damage (nor is PubMed). Noise cancelling headphones may even be safer because they allow you to use lower volumes as they block out distracting sound that you would otherwise drown out by turning up the volume. Good passive isolation can also help.

As an aside, you may very well have tinnitus - the ringing/humming is not necessarily always audible for folks that have it. Another reason to see an audiologist or ENT, perhaps...

 

[squidman]

Thanks for reply, GP and I are waiting a bit before consulting a specialist or ENT.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I have on and off not what I would call tinitis, but high pitched sounds when I am tired, hung-over, or otherwise indisposed. It comes and goes so I don't think it is tinnitus.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symptoms-causes/syc-20350156#:~:targetText=Tinnitus is the perception of,or a circulatory system disorder.

Mostly comes with lack of sleep, have it now after 45 hour door to door flight from australia to norway.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symptoms-causes/syc-20350156#:~:targetText=Tinnitus is the perception of,or a circulatory system disorder.

https://www.sleepfoundation.org/exc...pact/how-sleep-deprivation-affects-your-heart

On asking my GP, she advised me to stay away from noise-cancelling headphones. What is the science behind this, does anyone know? I had a family friend over a year ago and tried on his Bose qc25's with the noise reduction on, and it was a revelation.

Noise-cancelling headphones might actually do the opposite for the most people and save their hearing.

Since there is less ambient noise getting in the way of listening, then chances are people tend to not turn them (and IEMs) up as loud as headphones (barring a quiet room). Think of the difference being something like painting over a painting and painting on fresh canvass. Or how many times you have to take the same exposure of the same frame just so you can stack the photo and then have Photoshop or Affinity remove camera noise or tourists milling about vs just taking the photo on a cold day when people aren't standing around there.

It's not fool proof though. You might enjoy the sound too much and still crank it up. Or the signal that the headphone plays in addition to the music that cancels out the frequencies it detects on the other side of the earcups (ie the ambient noise) is too loud, it just cancels out so you don't see it but like how in X-Men Banshee and that other mutant with the same power canceled each other out and tossed Gambit in the air like it's two bombs.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symptoms-causes/syc-20350156#:~:targetText=Tinnitus is the perception of,or a circulatory system disorder.

On the other hand, I don't want the next time I do the syd-norway route to damage my hearing, after all have iem's, and silicone plugs for swimmers etc.

That's not fool proof either.

You can still enjoy the sound and crank it up, either to cover the ambient noise or just because you like how it sounds, since louder is perceivably better unless distortion and electronic noise step in.

And then when you do crank it up, the drivers are moving air in your ear canal, which is now sealed, so the air is getting pressurized with nowhere to go. This is why 64Audio came up with those IEMs that have a covered port that kind of works like something on a pressure cooker.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symptoms-causes/syc-20350156#:~:targetText=Tinnitus is the perception of,or a circulatory system disorder.

In any case I don't find the plane noise that bad...I just don't sleep on those 9 and 11 hour flights. I catch up 4hrs sleep at the airport hotel.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symptoms-causes/syc-20350156#:~:targetText=Tinnitus is the perception of,or a circulatory system disorder.

https://www.sleepfoundation.org/exc...pact/how-sleep-deprivation-affects-your-heart

Still, begging the question...how bad can they be? Would have thought with noise-cancelling being all the rage, someone would have answered that by now.

The answer is "moderation."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symptoms-causes/syc-20350156#:~:targetText=Tinnitus is the perception of,or a circulatory system disorder.

Further notes:

1. "Amplified music" in the context of that medical article means "guitar amp music." You're less likely to go deaf if the sort of music was all acoustic since only a few can get loud enough without help, like if you're sitting next to the drums or you're on stage with the orchestra (eg Beethoven).

2. The article specifically mentions headphones either because like your GP (who is not an ENT, unlike my ENT who also happens to be an audiophile) the writer doesn't completely understand the problem, engineering, or semantics, calling all personal audio "headphones" without making a distinction with IEMs specifically or confusing the air pressure problem as being at the same level, or that the average reader might not either. In any case, bottomline, don't listen too loud or don't listen loud too long.

3. Wattage output and headphone sensitivity can't tell you all that either unless you can measure absolutely everything else like amp input signal voltage and gain plus dynamic peaks. I have a portable amp that has my HD600's sound breaking up at just around 70dB output on a 1000hz sine wave; my reference amp doesn't even get noise kicking in until 82dB and by then I've already tapped out.

 

[megabigeye]

I have on and off not what I would call tinitis, but high pitched sounds when I am tired, hung-over, or otherwise indisposed. It comes and goes so I don't think it is tinnitus. Mostly comes with lack of sleep, have it now after 45 hour door to door flight from australia to norway.

On asking my GP, she advised me to stay away from noise-cancelling headphones. What is the science behind this, does anyone know? I had a family friend over a year ago and tried on his Bose qc25's with the noise reduction on, and it was a revelation. On the other hand, I don't want the next time I do the syd-norway route to damage my hearing, after all have iem's, and silicone plugs for swimmers etc. In any case I don't find the plane noise that bad...I just don't sleep on those 9 and 11 hour flights. I catch up 4hrs sleep at the airport hotel.

Still, begging the question...how bad can they be? Would have thought with noise-cancelling being all the rage, someone would have answered that by now.

Have even considered ear-pro a la 3m with 60db rating, the maximum....for airport workers and heavy industry..I did actually fly once with 3m ear-muffs and iems inside. Not super comfortable.

Over and out headfier's...

Tinnitus is, by definition, ringing in the ears. It's not a disease in and of itself, but can be a symptom of other problems. So (to be a bit pedantic), yes, you do have tinnitus, but it might not be permanent. I wouldn't worry about it.

I assume what your GP is warning you about is the pressure that ANC headphones can cause on your eardrums, which can make tinnitus worse. Not all ANC headphones have the same level of noise cancellation, though, and the ones with less cause less pressure on your ears. To me it seems like a case of picking your poison: making your tinnitus worse with ANC headphones, or potential hearing damage from long flights.

Anyway, it's probably something you'd want to do a bit more serious research into before making a final decision.

I've also combined ANC over-ears with my IEMs on a long flight. I didn't find it too uncomfortable, but I didn't do it for very long before my wife wanted her headphones back.

 

[squidman]

Wow protegemaniac did a bit of research there! Thanks buddy! My blood pressure etc etc levels are pretty normal, although I smoke, and all the rest is pretty normal. Still sleep ok, (although I had a classmate who died of lack of sleep! on top of other conditions of course..sad story), my GP and cardiologist find nothing to worry about. Like I said it comes and goes. I suppose what my GP was referring to was what megabigeye referred to, ANC phones adding extra pressure. As it's not critical at the moment, and doesn't seem to be an infection, playing the waiting game before I see the ENT specialist. Exercise seems to help..it just goes away. Thanks for all the help peps!

Edit didn't use ANC over-ears but 3m ear-protection earmuffs over IEM's..but if you used 3m Peltor ANC ear-muffs over iem's (say tactical ones)..curious to try..or just go the gigantic 40-50db nr peltor ear-muffs. Looks a bit strange on the plane, but with screaming babies....

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Wow protegemaniac did a bit of research there! Thanks buddy! My blood pressure etc etc levels are pretty normal, although I smoke, and all the rest is pretty normal. Still sleep ok, (although I had a classmate who died of lack of sleep! on top of other conditions of course..sad story), my GP and cardiologist find nothing to worry about. Like I said it comes and goes. I suppose what my GP was referring to was what megabigeye referred to, ANC phones adding extra pressure. As it's not critical at the moment, and doesn't seem to be an infection, playing the waiting game before I see the ENT specialist. Exercise seems to help..it just goes away. Thanks for all the help peps!

I'd much rather see the ENT as soon as possible. I see my ENT as regularly as my optometrist. The latter I see because try moving around without glasses or any kind of vision disability; the former because what have I got to live for if I can't hear music.

Edit didn't use ANC over-ears but 3m ear-protection earmuffs over IEM's..but if you used 3m Peltor ANC ear-muffs over iem's (say tactical ones)..curious to try..or just go the gigantic 40-50db nr peltor ear-muffs. Looks a bit strange on the plane, but with screaming babies....

You mean you have ANC IEMs and then wear the earmuffs over that?

That might make the ANC signal weaker since there's even lower ambient noise that the earphone will detect...assuming its ANC mic sensor is on the earpieces and not for example on a mic if it has one for calls.

 

[squidman]

To clarify I used regular Peltor 3m earmuffs (non-ANC) over non-ANC IEM's..just passive noise reduction. It wasn't super comfortable and last couple of (20 hour!) flights the plane noise wasn't intolerable. Screaming babies on the other hand. Swimmer's silicone ear-plugs don't really do it for me either. The ANC option is the most comfortable, but not a good idea if I have tinnitus, whether sporadic or otherwise. As far as I can tell. I would love to throw on a couple of bose qc-35's but don't want to risk it.

That was last year I tried that (ear-muff iem combination), this year I just put up with the noise..can't sleep in those tiny seats anyway. Especially with obnoxious seat-neighbors spilling over into my seat.

May be time for a trip to ENT anyway, although last I spoke to GP about this I went ahead and had my ears flushed of earwax..so that wasn't the problem. For example, the noise was there half an hour ago when I started writing this post..left it a bit...now gone. Really strange.

Used Kinera H3 iem's with soft-foam plugs, Peltor 3m ear-muffs designed for shooting, chainsaw use etc..nothing fancy.

 

[squidman]

What bigeye wrote sounds reasonable, and why I've always been a bit wary of ANC headphones....yes they cancel noise, but by sending more airwaves to your ear-drum. Not a good solution or an imperfect solution compared with noise isolation. Maybe I will just pick up some 50-60db NR ear-muffs and look like a freak on the plane next time.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

To clarify I used regular Peltor 3m earmuffs (non-ANC) over non-ANC IEM's..just passive noise reduction. It wasn't super comfortable and last couple of (20 hour!) flights the plane noise wasn't intolerable. Screaming babies on the other hand. Swimmer's silicone ear-plugs don't really do it for me either. The ANC option is the most comfortable, but not a good idea if I have tinnitus, whether sporadic or otherwise. As far as I can tell. I would love to throw on a couple of bose qc-35's but don't want to risk it.

I'd just keep using the earmuffs+IEM and just lower the volume.

If I'd buy something else I'd get a 64Audio ADEL series and still use the earmuffs. The ports on it will let pressurized air out while the muffs will offset the ambient noise getting through otherwise exposed ports on the ADEL.

 

[squidman]

Thanks for the tip! Ok a bit more expensive than the 100$ kineras! Think kineras and peltors will suffice cough cough. Or just put up with the noise!

https://www.64audio.com/iem-type/Custom/user-type/Studio

nice but pricey! Can't put a price on your hearing, of course...

Adel no longer with 64 audio

https://blog.64audio.com/regarding-the-end-of-64-audios-partnership-with-adel/

I can barely tell the difference between my over-ear Beyerdynamics and chinese Superlux cans..so probably not in the right audiophile segment for upmarket iem's. The kineras are lacking a lot (nothing to compare them with) but a lot more convenient than lugging dt-770's or akg open-backs on the train, bus etc. I dunno, do you look cool with full-on studio cans on the bus? At some point I will get custom iem's made, and they will be from China most likely..then eventually from a reputable manufacturer. Until then and until lottery win, cheaping with aliexpress.

Still, thanks for all the help..your research was really helpfull. Time for me to do my own. Of course am tempted as DIY project to make my own iem's! Youtube it and ye shall find!

Again thanks for advice and help!

 

[mattiav]

I suppose what my GP was referring to was what megabigeye referred to, ANC phones adding extra pressure. As it's not critical at the moment, and doesn't seem to be an infection, playing the waiting game before I see the ENT specialist. Exercise seems to help..it just goes away. Thanks for all the help peps!

the ‘pressure’ sensation you can get from ANC headphones wont cause damage - certainly not with over ears. Worst case a slightly odd feeling. Sound pressure (noise, not anti-noise which cancels out the noise), not air pressure is the danger here.

The Sony headphone app has a feature to adjust for the ambient pressure and reduce the sensation of ‘pressure’ that ANC may cause.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Thanks for the tip! Ok a bit more expensive than the 100$ kineras! Think kineras and peltors will suffice cough cough. Or just put up with the noise!

https://www.64audio.com/iem-type/Custom/user-type/Studio

nice but pricey! Can't put a price on your hearing, of course...

Adel no longer with 64 audio

https://blog.64audio.com/regarding-the-end-of-64-audios-partnership-with-adel/

I'd just turn it down a little bit than how loud you were listening before.

I can barely tell the difference between my over-ear Beyerdynamics and chinese Superlux cans..so probably not in the right audiophile segment for upmarket iem's. The kineras are lacking a lot (nothing to compare them with) but a lot more convenient than lugging dt-770's or akg open-backs on the train, bus etc. I dunno, do you look cool with full-on studio cans on the bus? At some point I will get custom iem's made, and they will be from China most likely..then eventually from a reputable manufacturer. Until then and until lottery win, cheaping with aliexpress.

Some Superlux do sound like Beyers with boosted low end and top end. I use an HD330 on my gaming rig. The DT770 is still clearly better...if I'm using them primarily for music. As it is I have the HD600 and the HD330 cost less than a new pair of HD600 earpads, and uses $12 third party pads, so I figured it was cheaper than wearing down the pads on my HD600 (although about a year after I got angled Brainwavz pads on my HD600).

The kineras are lacking a lot (nothing to compare them with) but a lot more convenient than lugging dt-770's or akg open-backs on the train, bus etc. I dunno, do you look cool with full-on studio cans on the bus?

I don't really care about looking cool as much as I care about 1) just not looking absurd (eg cat ear headphones; if the sound was good I'd use them), 2) being able to listen (ie open backs are horrible at this), and 3) not attract attention to get held up in an alley (ie something IEMs that aren't custom with glitter can do).

I dunno, do you look cool with full-on studio cans on the bus? At some point I will get custom iem's made, and they will be from China most likely..then eventually from a reputable manufacturer. Until then and until lottery win, cheaping with aliexpress.

Custom IEMs from China will be a bad idea once you factor in how this isn't like putting something in your cart.

The IEMs have a good chance of needing a re-fit, so after waiting for the shipment, you have to ship them back to get the shell done again...but not before having to explain how the fit is problematic to somebody in the Middle Kingdom that needs a translator to understand the foreign barbarian corrupting their country. So you have translator delay, translation headaches, shipping, no consumer protection laws in the Middle Kingdom where plastic is sold as rice so if they can't make it right you can't really count on getting your money back...

 

[squidman]

I seem to have sidetracked my own thread..getting back to the original question..is there any scientific objective evidence that ANC headphones damage hearing? Well I guess we have to divide that into two threads: those with normal hearing, and those with possible tinnitus.

Good to see another superlux fan! They rock for the monies!

I've had nothing but good experiences with my Kinera resellers via alixpress..it took a while for them to replace a defective set, but they did, eventually. Ok sidetracking again, back to main topic!