[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porksoda The only guy who will tell you anything is the illustrious K.G., who will only tell you that his is the best.

Well he is not lying

Now seriously, one thing I've noticed noone has mentioned the Berning MicroZotl. Once Dr. Gilmore told me the Microzotl (which is not his creation but David Berning's) has some design or circuit feature that is absolutely unique, no other commercial or DIY amplifier is built in a similar way or with that similar circuit feature, something like that. Sound-wise I'm not sure what it would be closest to (I know I loved it with HP2's and HD600's though), but from Kevin's comments, design-wise it seems the MicroZotl can't be easily compared to anything out there.

 

[RnB180]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire yeah, probably because of the politics behind it

probably to deter a cloners intending to profit off a specific manufacturers success/reputation directly.

http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=135312

Quote:

Lots of folks make DIY amps that are clones of other amps as a hobby. Once said amp is offered for sale, however, this is another matter entirely. We have chosen to not allow the use of another manufacturer's mark to extract more value from the sale of a cloned amp, as it comes at the expense of said manufacturer.

in essence, to directly name a specific amplifier by a manufacturer for DIY comparative reasons, may get a bit ugly. Usually Folks that have been here a while already understand its an issue of etiquette/respect/morality, usually the new members are the ones more naive about it.


That might be one reason why.

 

[jcx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra Well he is not lying Now seriously, one thing I've noticed noone has mentioned the Berning MicroZotl. Once Dr. Gilmore told me the Microzotl (which is not his creation but David Berning's) has some design or circuit feature that is absolutely unique, no other commercial or DIY amplifier is built in a similar way or with that similar circuit feature, something like that. Sound-wise I'm not sure what it would be closest to (I know I loved it with HP2's and HD600's though), but from Kevin's comments, design-wise it seems the MicroZotl can't be easily compared to anything out there.

interesting that you can attach a 250 KHz switching converter to a tube amp output and it sells as a "mysterious improvement" - "otl" is a very finely parsed lie, the "impedance converter" shown in the patent incorporates a high frequency transformer - just not an audio band "big iron" output transformer

"Toward the fulfillment of these and other objects, the output transformerless amplifier impedance matching apparatus and method has at least one switching power converter bridge having opposite terminals connected between a fixed source of voltage and the load. Two bridges and two power supplies are used for bi-polar or push-pull applications. The returns for the power supplies are connected to the return for the load. The other two terminals of a given bridge are connected across the primary winding of a conversion transformer."

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyre Err, I believe the RA-1 is non-inverting, just like a cmoy (linky).

Whoops, my bad. I must have been thinking of their phono preamp - which has very similar components.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcx interesting that you can attach a 250 KHz switching converter to a tube amp output and it sells as a "mysterious improvement" - "otl" is a very finely parsed lie, the "impedance converter" shown in the patent incorporates a high frequency transformer - just not an audio band "big iron" output transformer

You should share your comments on the technical details with Kevin directly, or maybe Berning himself. I'm not qualified at all to understand or assess the technical merits of the MicroZotl design (or any other amplifier for that matter). Was just sharing what I had been told by one of the leading gurus of headphone amp designs though.

 

[00940]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis_Vaughan Hybrid Solid gain, tube output. ???

I think the RKV fits there. Tube output stage (with current and voltage gain) enclosed in the feedback loop of an opamp.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

yeah, probably because of the politics behind it

Yup.That is it entirely

So on that note this thread should either stay on topic without sarcstic cracks either way or see it locked since "politics" is what some members are all about and look to inject personal prejudices in all such threads where none formerly existed so they can make their own reality come true.

On topic and to the point or the thread goes away.your choice folks.

 

[Icy006]

Ooh, fun thread!

There are a lot of variables at play here. If I was going to try and compare a DIY amp to a commercial one, I would try (and often have tried) to speak to my subjective opinions on a complete system that I've listened to. For example, I've compared a headroom microamp and my own pimeta before using Headroom MicroDAC -> my PIMETA -> MS-2i vs. Headroom MicroDAC -> MicroAmp -> MS-2i.

This way, it speaks to an actual experience. When the details are boiled down, and one speaks to individual characteristics of an amp on its own, it's often missing the forest while we're focusing on all the pretty trees.

In addition, one big point I often see overlooked (especially with DIY discussion) is the power supply used. If two PIMETAs are compared, and they have identical components on the PCB, a 24v STEPS-powered one will likely spank a single 9v battery-powered one

 

[Liver]

Quote:

in essence, to directly name a specific amplifier by a manufacturer for DIY comparative reasons, may get a bit ugly. Usually Folks that have been here a while already understand its an issue of etiquette/respect/morality, usually the new members are the ones more naive about it. That might be one reason why.

Maybe. Being naive may have nothing to do with it. Comparisons are just that, simply comparisons. If I could build a PIMETA (I can't) and I took it to a friends house and asked him, "how does the sound / quality / looks compare to your commercial amp?" How is that different from asking it here? Except modicum of privacy?


It is a free society, meaning you are also free to fail.

Liver

 

[rickcr42]

Honest comparisons are fine but comparing two amps directly then claiming one superior because it is DIY hence cheaper even though the person has no clue about how it actually sonds is NOT comparing anything but preselecting then wanting others to tell him that yes,his amp is the best there is.No there are none better at any price and yes you save a bundle.
The DIYers need to be convinced they have better than they can buy and really don't want to know there are better amps available.The need others to tell them they made the right choice because there is a level of doubt that maybe,just maybe there is something to a truly engineered design that once the lid goes on at the assembly line never comes off.Is just used as intended without any glitches or needing any "tweaks" because it is a completed design and not a project in motion as many DIY amps are (including 99% of my own.).that it will remain so for many years until something "clearly" superior comes along and the line upgraded.
The knowledge that there is a company backing a product and an actual staff EE having done the design work and wualified techs doing any needed repair work under warranty.

DIY is fun no doubt.It allows the ampless to get in at a minimum cost once the tools and equipment are purchased and allows a certain freedom to add our own control formats and artistic touches to the final design.allows us to tweek the parts for an end sonic signature.Allows not only a usable amp as the end goal but teaches some actual electronics knowledge along the way so mostly all good.

BUT !

There are commercial amps out there that will flat out destroy everything most of us have access to and would be even more expensive to build a "one of" once the smoke cleared even IF you have access to the schematics and had true layout skills.

Comparing the Millett to the singlepower for instance is like comparing a family sedan to a corvette.Yes they are both automobiles and will get you down the road but not even close to the same in class.

Apples and oranges ? More like lump of coal vs. diamond in some cases though even a lump of coal has its uses

 

[Porksoda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liver If I could build a PIMETA (I can't) and I took it to a friends house and asked him, "how does the sound / quality / looks compare to your commercial amp?" How is that different from asking it here? Except modicum of privacy?

Because there are a thousand permutations on any given DIY amp, and each sounds different. Granted, if you just ask your friend, and yours ends up sounding different than you expected, that is one thing. But here, there is a much larger audience, and people's opinions are frequently end up getting cited as fact. There is no way to reach a consensus about the sound of a DIY amp because no two people have the same DIY amp. Therefore, there is no way to check if their opinion is well-founded or not.

Moreover, DIY amp designers like Tangent probably don't like these comparisons being made because the VASTLY more important factor in determining the sound of their amps is the builder and their part selections. So, the quality of their work is being judged by someone who may or may not have done a proper job of part selection or building, and they have no way of knowing.

My two cents.

P.S. I think the lump of coal vs. diamond comparison is a bit unfair. There are many DIYers that take a tremendous ammount of pride in their work and have shown some real artistry. MY stuff looks like crap but at least it sounds good

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

P.S. I think the lump of coal vs. diamond comparison is a bit unfair. There are many DIYers that take a tremendous ammount of pride in their work and have shown some real artistry. MY stuff looks like crap but at least it sounds good

was a joke

...and there are some seriously crappy amps that if made in-house should still be a point of pride but that does not make them compete with a $5K amp or even $400 amp even if the same parts are used.
There is more to good sound than making a project look good or plugging in fashionable parts.
In fact sometimes these universally accepted as good parts are so misused or are such overkill for the position in the circuit it would have been better to use an el cheapo generic part instead.Everything has a sonic impact and even a lowly amp needs to be broken down to the individual parts then deicded on according to where and with what other part.Cost alone or good looks (nice color) is not the path to good sound but great sound WILL be expensive every time even if a DIY project.

 

[Liver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 Comparing the Millett to the singlepower for instance is like comparing a family sedan to a corvette.Yes they are both automobiles and will get you down the road but not even close to the same in class.

I understand what you are getting at. However comparing a family sedan to a corvette is valid. Meaning the benefits of a sedan include greater interior room, luggage space, etc. The benefits of a Corvette would include handling, tight suspension, and etc.

So to compare a DIY amp to a commercial one is still valid even if they are not in the same class, they are in the same category. An example of a review may be, the DIY presented a wider soundstage, but was lacking in overall tightness of midrange, etc.

In my opinion comparing performance of headphone amplifier to an automobile would be unfair. Coming further down, comparing a headphone amplifier to a home stereo amplifier with a headphone jack may be unfair.

Even if there are many permutations on DIY, that is only one person's opinion. If someone wants to take that as fact, then they can not be helped. This is a subjective hobby, in the end your listening experience is what matters.

I would say, "In my listening opinion I like X amp better than Y for these reasons . . ." Hence an opinion. Now if I took those amps and measured frequencies, I can state that as an interpretation of fact (i.e. measurement of THD). Observation, a corner stone of sceince.

I agree most DIYers will have pride in their work, some may have excessive pride and declare their product to be the best. Some people will also try to justify spending a great deal of money on an amplifier and declare it the best (a permutation of buyer's remorse).

Yes there are commercial amplifiers that will destroy DIY ones, and vice versa. I believe that is the point of this thread. How would you rank them, in you honest opinion?

Saying only naive people would do this is not right. Certain manufacturers have earned a great deal of respect by delivering a superior product (not just in amplifiers). However, that does not mean the product can not be challenged or compared.

Point is, they are all headphone amplifiers. What do you think on their "heirarchy" or their closest comparative model?

 

[RnB180]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liver Maybe. Being naive may have nothing to do with it. Comparisons are just that, simply comparisons. If I could build a PIMETA (I can't) and I took it to a friends house and asked him, "how does the sound / quality / looks compare to your commercial amp?" How is that different from asking it here? Except modicum of privacy? It is a free society, meaning you are also free to fail. Liver

Hi Liver,

I wasnt referring to amp comparisons. But more of a DIYer coming along, looking at a commercial amp, attempt a clone, and resell to extract more value on the basis "clone" and piggy back riding off the manufacturers reputation for amps to extract more money. Naive usually refers to those that don't yet understand its not an honest means of sale. i.e. normal DIY amp would most likely have a sale value of $50 but slap a commercial amps name in there and say its the same thing, and all of a sudden you can extract $50 more from the sale, at the same time harming the manufacturer of the said commercial amp. Normally Ive seen DIYers stay away from this practice. Ive seen it happen, but usually from those that get a bit hungry for a name follow this practice i.e. the new folk being "naive", it happens a lot with new DIYers. Excitement probably clouds their judgement. The veteran DIYers usually just build amps and state exactly what it is,


Sorry if my last post was unclear?

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

In my opinion comparing performance of headphone amplifier to an automobile would be unfair. Coming further down, comparing a headphone amplifier to a home stereo amplifier with a headphone jack may be unfair.

Actually many dedicated headphone amps are soundly whipped by the lowly headphone jack on vintage tube gear but that is another subject entirely

My point about the validity is the matchups that were posted as direct 1:1 compare so my point not only valid but also strictly to topic as presented.That I expanded on my reasons also valid.

Categories ? Before you can insert anything into a category you need at least a minimal familiarity with both the categoy and the items

Quote:

Even if there are many permutations on DIY, that is only one person's opinion. If someone wants to take that as fact, then they can not be helped. This is a subjective hobby, in the end your listening experience is what matters.

Again untrue.I can sit here and talk topology all day and all nigh but it would fall on "deaf" easrs anyway so I will not other than to say there is not one single opamp or buffer based amp on the planet than can compete head-to-head with a prperly designed DHT stage no matter how bad some may want it to be so.Just the way it is and why some amps are cheap while others not.Even a man close to deaf would readily pick out which is which blind folded so there goes "subjective" shot to hell.

Quote:

Yes there are commercial amplifiers that will destroy DIY ones, and vice versa. I believe that is the point of this thread. How would you rank them, in you honest opinion?

I don't have experience with all the amps named so any ranking by me would be a falsehood.I can say the millett is a "fun" amp that will be an assett to most low-mid hi end systems because it will cover up for the areas where this type of system is typically flawed and make music which is really what the end goal is and not specs.

To use a "super amp" with a front end that is lacking would be far worse than to use an average amp with a great front end because you want any shortcomings at the end of the food chain where they do the least sonic damage and not the beginning where the audiblity is highest by being reproduced by everyhing that follows "X" whatever gain stages

Quote:

I agree most DIYers will have pride in their work, some may have excessive pride and declare their product to be the best. Some people will also try to justify spending a great deal of money on an amplifier and declare it the best (a permutation of buyer's remorse

Hell i take pride in making a simple A/B switch that I lovingly have selected the wiring for,the switches,the jacks,the chassis and the color it will be painted if it is or the wood if not.
I also have not one single part of my main system not be a DIY project other than the fronts ends (sources) and back ends (speakers and headphones).eveything in the middle is my baby

but even though built to a standard beyond most DIY efforts still fall short of the best.I CAN build to that level mostly and in fact have schematics to almost every design that ever interested me but the expense would be so high it would be better to just buy the product and have done with it when cabinetry and finished design are all considered.Especially the designs that used custom manufactured parts and many do.

Quote:

Saying only naive people would do this is not right. Certain manufacturers have earned a great deal of respect by delivering a superior product (not just in amplifiers). However, that does not mean the product can not be challenged or compared.

I am saying too many times it is the unimformed who are always doing the comparisons and that leads to misinformation so for "clarity" someone needs to put the breaks on a bit and have the participants actually think at the least and hopefully do some actual listening rather than guess at what sounds better than what by reading the opinions of others who also have limited experience with the very things they try to compare.
To say " I think amp A sounds better than amp B but I never heard it myself" is meaningless.No more than words that give zero information to anyone that reads the thread.
But if instead " I have heard both amps and in my opinion amp B is the better sounding but not by a wide enough margin to justify the added cost so I would choose A all things considered but B really is better" then THAT is something someone could read and walk away with something at least to think about when considering options.And that is the point of this type of forum : Information not Disinformation

Quote:

Point is, they are all headphone amplifiers. What do you think on their "heirarchy" or their closest comparative model?

My choice is none of the above other than the Millett but not because the amps are lacking but because i do not have any actual "time" with the other examples.I also am not a big fan of opamps and anything not pure class-A so anything I would say clouded by those prejudices.Opamps only when i MUST (portable) or none (everything else)