[musikaladin]

...I was checking several live versions but always came back to the original studio version of "the rythm of the heat". I still find it the most intense, the most dense version of this reminder of our tribal past...
 

 

[musikaladin]

...if you wanna skip the talking, music starts at approx. 6:20.
Some prefer Gould's earlier recordings. Still to me in the 1981 session just everything sounds somehow right and moves me in a way only few composers and interpreters can...
 

 

[musikaladin]

 

Arvo Pärt is commonly referred to as a so-called minimalist composer. For me, however, there is nothing "minimal" about his work as far as musical substance and wealth of things to give to the listener go. I would go as far as to say Pärt is one of my favorite composers, living or dead. Some people find minimal music hollow and empty, but I often think the music is as rich as one's soul, you just need to open yourself up and let the music pull out things from within you you didn't even know existed.

 

It is hard for me to think of a piece that manages to touch my very core more thoroughly than "Spiegel im Spiegel" ("Mirror in the Mirror"). In front of this magnificent piece I am naked, emotionally, and I feel it helps me transcend to a higher plane. Many recordings exist of this piece. Below is the first of three performances that appear on the "Alina" album released by ECM as part of their New Series. The work was originally written to be performer as a duet between violin and piano, but the violin is often replaced by either a cello or a viola. Here we hear Vladimir Spivakov on violin and Sergej Bezrodny on piano. The version featuring cello from the same album is also recommended listening. Pärt's choral works are also divine – highly recommended. Of those, "Kanon pokajanen" might be my favorite.
 
 

 
...what an antipole or maybe better call it an antidote to high frequency modern city life... I just came back from Singapore's quite busy MRT and I wasn't sure if I would find the calm to listen to this or whether I should better wait until later tonight. Now, I didn't want to wait that long and tried; after starting once there was no turning back, the music just pulled me in and kept me there to it's last sound fading away...

 

[icebear]

  ...if you wanna skip the talking, music starts at approx. 6:20.
Some prefer Gould's earlier recordings. Still to me in the 1981 session just everything sounds somehow right and moves me in a way only few composers and interpreters can...

 
Positive ! He was a genius and it doesn't really matter if with or w/o dolby

.
 
I have a Zenph Re-performance edition of Gould's 1955 recording and with all the latest high tech and DSD (recorded 2006) and in my book this is just a technical masterpiece but in no way it creates an equivalent to the human performance. With all the perfection, the elimination of historic tape hiss and breathing by the artist, also the human element of the performance has been cleaned up. It is very strange to me and I don't like it. Maybe I give the disc another try. It was sitting on the shelf for quite a while.

 

[musikaladin]

 
Positive ! He was a genius and it doesn't really matter if with or w/o dolby

.
 
I have a Zenph Re-performance edition of Gould's 1955 recording and with all the latest high tech and DSD (recorded 2006) and in my book this is just a technical masterpiece but in no way it creates an equivalent to the human performance. With all the perfection, the elimination of historic tape hiss and breathing by the artist, also the human element of the performance has been cleaned up. It is very strange to me and I don't like it. Maybe I give the disc another try. It was sitting on the shelf for quite a while.

 
...if sound engineers would manage just to get rid of the tape-hiss I wouldn't mind. But as you say, all such attempts also have impact on the all over atmosphere. Not only that breathing (-sound) of the artist might be affected, I also recognize a certain impact on very quiet notes especially when the sound is supposed to die away slowly in the reverberation of the room... on such "renewed" recordings there is a point where the sound just disappears abruptly  instead of fading into the tape hiss. This reminds me of some of the more exotic Noise Reduction systems of the 80s as DBX and High Com. I also didn't like that and rather used the less effective Dolby B instead...

 

[musikaladin]

Dvorak's 9th symphony "from the new world" nowadays may sound a little worn since it (or variations from it) is used in so may movies and advertisements.
 
Still, how might Dvorak's 9th have sounded to somebody sitting in a NY concert-hall end of the 19th century... ?
 
Of course this is about the whole symphony. This version by Solti is my most favourite one, but I didn't find it on YouTube as a whole. So I thought the 3rd movement gives the best impression.
 

 

[brhfl]

 

[...]

 

It is hard for me to think of a piece that manages to touch my very core more thoroughly than "Spiegel im Spiegel" ("Mirror in the Mirror"). In front of this magnificent piece I am naked, emotionally, and I feel it helps me transcend to a higher plane. Many recordings exist of this piece. Below is the first of three performances that appear on the "Alina" album released by ECM as part of their New Series. The work was originally written to be performer as a duet between violin and piano, but the violin is often replaced by either a cello or a viola. Here we hear Vladimir Spivakov on violin and Sergej Bezrodny on piano. The version featuring cello from the same album is also recommended listening. Pärt's choral works are also divine – highly recommended. Of those, "Kanon pokajanen" might be my favorite.

 
A beautiful piece indeed, and though I have many recordings of it, I always come back to the three on the ECM disc, with my preference going to the cello. Even though that disc is rather repetitive, so to speak, consisting 'only' of three versions of 'Spiegel im Spiegel,' and two of 'Für Alina,' it's a gorgeous, spiritual experience. 
 

  ...if you wanna skip the talking, music starts at approx. 6:20.
Some prefer Gould's earlier recordings. Still to me in the 1981 session just everything sounds somehow right and moves me in a way only few composers and interpreters can...

 
I will always prefer the Goldbergs on harpsichord, but keep a handful of piano versions around, and Gould's 1981 recording is, to me, the most touching I've heard. Can feel a very special sense of connectedness between the performer and the piece...

 

[icebear]

   
...if sound engineers would manage just to get rid of the tape-hiss I wouldn't mind. But as you say, all such attempts also have impact on the all over atmosphere. Not only that breathing (-sound) of the artist might be affected, I also recognize a certain impact on very quiet notes especially when the sound is supposed to die away slowly in the reverberation of the room... on such "renewed" recordings there is a point where the sound just disappears abruptly  instead of fading into the tape hiss. This reminds me of some of the more exotic Noise Reduction systems of the 80s as DBX and High Com. I also didn't like that and rather used the less effective Dolby B instead...

The Zenph Re-performance is not working with the original tapes as direct basis for the reissue.
Simplified: They analyzed the recoding for every aspect of dynamics and length of each single hit of the keys by Gould and then fed a computerized piano with that data and have it played and recorded this new machine performance.

 

[TJ Elite]

  A beautiful piece indeed, and though I have many recordings of it, I always come back to the three on the ECM disc, with my preference going to the cello. Even though that disc is rather repetitive, so to speak, consisting 'only' of three versions of 'Spiegel im Spiegel,' and two of 'Für Alina,' it's a gorgeous, spiritual experience.

The ECM Alina disc is still indeed my reference recording as well. I actually bought the sheet music for Für Alina today and ordered one for the version of Spiegel im Spiegel for violin and piano. It's interesting to see what kind of insight into the music you can get from trying to play these deceptively simple pieces yourself.

 

[musikaladin]

The Zenph Re-performance is not working with the original tapes as direct basis for the reissue.
Simplified: They analyzed the recoding for every aspect of dynamics and length of each single hit of the keys by Gould and then fed a computerized piano with that data and have it played and recorded this new machine performance.

 
...I see, thanks for your explanation. Technically surely an interesting approach, but as you wrote, in relation to the music's emotional substance very very very questionable...
 
There might also be a psychological aspect of it: I guess, if I didn't know what I am listening to, I might not even be able to recognize it's artificial nature, especially when listening just casually and on an average stereo equipment. And under such circumstances I might even like it. But as soon as I knew the true nature (or better "non-nature") of it, I would have no interest in it at all...

 

[musikaladin]

SOAD... "metal" was not yet represented here as it would actually be justified; in this case the style is "progressive-metal", at least in my opinion this suites System Of A Down best.
 
Similar to what I wrote earlier in this thread about "Good Morning Beautiful" the lyrics in "Dreaming" are most densely woven with the rhythm and melody of the song. Even the lyrics themselves can be interpreted similar to those of "Good Morning Beautiful", just that "Dreaming" is much stronger enciphered...
 
Besides the geniality of the whole song as such, starting from 1:50 "she lost her mind...." is heavy goose bumps; even on my otherwise rather insensitive leather-skin. And last but not least, since I heard the song the first time it didn't lose any of it's fascination to me, it rather grew stronger...
 

 

[TJ Elite]

 

The Zenph Re-performance is not working with the original tapes as direct basis for the reissue.
Simplified: They analyzed the recoding for every aspect of dynamics and length of each single hit of the keys by Gould and then fed a computerized piano with that data and have it played and recorded this new machine performance.

 
...I see, thanks for your explanation. Technically surely an interesting approach, but as you wrote, in relation to the music's emotional substance very very very questionable...
 
There might also be a psychological aspect of it: I guess, if I didn't know what I am listening to, I might not even be able to recognize it's the artificial nature, especially when listening casually on a average stereo equipment. And under such circumstances I might even like it. But as soon as I knew the true nature (or better "non-nature") of it, I would have no interest in it at all...

As someone whose all-time favorite singer (Megurine Luka) is "just" a voice bank, I always find this sort of discussions very entertaining to read. I think it would have been better for you to listen to the re-performances first without knowing about how they were produced before passing judgement on them. Even if you listened to them now, your opinion would likely be very biased and biases can be hard to get rid of.

 

Oscar Peterson's wife (and Peterson himself, he was an endorser of the technology) does not share your sentiment. Watch the short video below; you might reconsider your position. Or not. Peterson's wife Kelly at least was very moved to witness the performance. She says she felt Oscar's presence. An interestingly opposite reaction to how some people react the Zenph technology and others like it at least based on prejudices alone.

 

 

  SOAD... "metal" was not yet represented here as it would actually be justified; in this case the style is "progressive-metal", at least in my opinion this suites System Of A Down best.
 
Similar to what I wrote earlier in this thread about "Good Morning Beautiful" the lyrics in "Dreaming" are most densely woven with the rhythm and melody of the song. Even the lyrics themselves can be interpreted similar to those of "Good Morning Beautiful", just that "Dreaming" is much stronger enciphered...
 
Besides the geniality of the whole song as such, starting from 1:50 "she lost her mind...." is heavy goose bumps; even on my otherwise rather insensitive leather-skin. And last but not least, since I heard the song the first time it didn't lose any of it's fascination to me, it rather grew stronger...
 

I was actually about to post some metal, thinking the same thing. It saddens me whenever I run into people who listen to only one type of music – they are missing out on so much! I for one couldn't live if I could only listen to one kind of music for the rest of my life. Any genre. I mean it; I literally would shoot myself in the head if I was forced to live like that.

 

It is unfortunate how some people look down on metal, dismissing it having any value as art. How condescending! True, I find maybe 10% of metal to be worth my time, but the same goes for any genre, be we talking about classical, grunge, hip hop, or trance. There are many metal acts out there that have created some of the most stunning music ever made, but of them Neurosis has always been one of the ones that are most special. What impresses me most about their work, is that even if I lived forever, I don't think my mind would ever go to places that these guys have gone when they've created their music. As I typically demand of metal, their music contains aggression, lots of aggression. But it typically lies beneath a faux calm surface, only occasionally breaking through the surface, peeking its head out between the waves before returning back into the depths where it is always present, waiting for its next opportunity to emerge and take over.

 

Pretty much every Neurosis album is special, but The Eye of Every Storm and its title track have always stood out as particularly special to me. Listen and marvel.

 

 

In the same breath I will introduce you Om and their song State of Non-Return, complete with video. I don't even know what I could say that would do justice to the music, so I will leave it to your ears to experience and appreciate it. More to follow in the future.

 

 

[musikaladin]

 

Originally Posted by musikaladin /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
...I see, thanks for your explanation. Technically surely an interesting approach, but as you wrote, in relation to the music's emotional substance very very very questionable...
 

As someone whose all-time favorite singer (Megurine Luka) is "just" a voice bank, I always find this sort of discussions very entertaining to read. I think it would have been better for you to listen to the re-performances first without knowing about how they were produced before passing judgement on them. Even if you listened to them now, your opinion would likely be very biased and biases can be hard to get rid of.

 

 
...right, my judgement here was based on prejudice. And yes, I am not free of that shortcoming...
 
The context of the discussion was some of Gould's historical recordings, and this was what I tried to visualize (what is actually the right term for "acoustically visualizing"... audilizing?), how it might sound being recreated with Zenph technology; and I found the idea of listening to Gould without his humming along not very auspicious...
 
I can easily imagine that the piano part by itself is indistinguishable from the original (at least for me as a non-professional). But if a recording is already familiar to me, including all the breathing, the rustling and swishing and all the other "human" sounds that are there besides the pure piano sound, I might miss it very much.
 
Still, you are totally right, if I  did not expect to hear that "ambient sounds", if I simply approached the music as innocent and naive as a white sheet of paper, I might not miss anything and love what I hear, so I will give it a try...
 

 

Oscar Peterson's wife (and Peterson himself, he was an endorser of the technology) does not share your sentiment. Watch the short video below; you might reconsider your position. Or not. Peterson's wife Kelly at least was very moved to witness the performance. She says she felt Oscar's presence. An interestingly opposite reaction to how some people react the Zenph technology and others like it at least based on prejudices alone.

 

 
You mentioned Megurine Luka being a "just" a voice bank... To me there is no essential qualitative difference whether you digitally imitate and vary the sound of instruments or even the sound of human voices; or if totally new sounds are digitally created, beyond all natural sources. All of such can lead to most wonderful results if the composer / musician is able to breath spirit into the music.
 
The digital revolution is an infinite playground of sound, and I love it. That's why a estimated 30% of my collection is "electronic" stuff. I still remember when I first heard Jean Michel Jarre with Oxygene... I guess I was around 9 years old; or when I saw Yello with their Bostich video the first time on Swiss Television. That was on my parent's black and white TV in1980 or so (yes, we still had a black and white at that time; music was more important than watching TV)... all that had a deep impression on me and presaging my later preferences.
 
Recently I was even digging out this one on vinyl. No doubt, this was one of the ultimate expressions of those day's zeitgeist!
From 9:50 onwards this is quite a space trip...
 

 
...and Yello still provides me with serious quality time. "The digital world is... emotion..."
 

 
PS: above mentioned Bostich starting at around 17:00.
PPS: Thanks for introducing Neurosis and Om. I had a short listen and both is very promising!

 

[TJ Elite]

 
...right, my judgement here was based on prejudice. And yes, I am not free of that shortcoming...
 
The context of the discussion was some of Gould's historical recordings, and this was what I tried to visualize (what is actually the right term for "acoustically visualizing"... audilizing?), how it might sound being recreated with Zenph technology; and I found the idea of listening to Gould without his humming along not very auspicious...
 
I can easily imagine that the piano part by itself is indistinguishable from the original (at least for me as a non-professional). But if a recording is already familiar to me, including all the breathing, the rustling and swishing and all the other "human" sounds that are there besides the pure piano sound, I might miss it very much.
 
Still, you are totally right, if I  did not expect to hear that "ambient sounds", if I simply approached the music as innocent and naive as a white sheet of paper, I might not miss anything and love what I hear, so I will give it a try...
 
 
You mentioned Megurine Luka being a "just" a voice bank... To me there is no essential qualitative difference whether you digitally imitate and vary the sound of instruments or even the sound of human voices; or if totally new sounds are digitally created, beyond all natural sources. All of such can lead to most wonderful results if the composer / musician is able to breath spirit into the music.
 
…
 
PPS: Thanks for introducing Neurosis and Om. I had a short listen and both is very promising!

It's refreshing to hear someone consider a pianist's humming an integral part of the performance after having to listen to so many people complain about the vocalisations of pianists like Glenn Gould and Keith Jarrett. I agree with you on the point that in the context of the Glenn Gould 1955 Goldberg recording merely replicating the piano would only be part of the performance. I don't have issues with the sound quality of the album, so I don't personally have any interest in the Zenph re-performance disc. Originally when I started listening to jazz and classical I was first distracted by the weird background noises I heard on some recordings, especially solo piano records. At first I thought what I was hearing was people talking in the background, which I thought was unacceptable. What kind of studio professionalism is that! When I finally realized I was hearing the pianist humming along to the music and that being picked up by the microphones, I immediately realized it was part of the performance and accepted them without further thought. Now my mind doesn't even hear the vocalisations as an entity separate from the music. I can see why they might feel distracting to some people, but for me they add to the performance rather than detract from it.

 

The only Zenph disc I have heard is the recreation of Art Tatum's Piano Starts Here: Live at The Shrine. The Zenph record was easier for me to acquire than the original, so I thought why not. They've recorded the piano in the same space as the original record was and even brought an audience to sit in the hall to recreate everything as closely as possible. As an added bonus they've included the programme twice, once in stereo and then in binaural, recorded with a dummy head placed at where Tatum's head would have been to let you hear how he perceived the music sitting at the piano. That is the kind of dedication I can appreciate.

 

I don't personally really have a strong opinion on Zenph one way or the other. To me the technology seems to work already, so I guess I would say it's a good thing. It's hard to think of a negative angle to it.

 

 

I referred to Luka being "just" a voice bank with the quotes, because there are people out there who I've heard say that programmed vocals like hers aren't "real music". This is a very challenging concept for me to grasp, for I've the faintest idea what that even means! I am unable to wrap my mind around how a piece of music could be "fake". I do think I know what they are trying to say, but I still can't agree with such a mentality. Your open attitude toward new tools for creating sound is something I wish a bit more people would have. Sometimes I feel we humans are a bit too afraid of the word "artificial", when all it means is that something was made or produced rather than being something that occurs naturally. I think people think "artificial" is analogous to "fake", when it is not. And "fake" of course means "inferior", hence the negative attitude. I prefer to think that "artificial" is "different", not "worse". I feel a very deep connection to most Vocaloid music like Luka. The most well-executed emotional pieces have moved me much more profoundly than any human performance I've ever heard. Why this is, I would very much like to know. Perhaps one day I will understand.

 

 

It is nice to hear Neurosis and Om were of interest to you. I will post more quality metal later on.

 

---

 

To add a contribution to the songs to represent electronic music in this thread, I'm staying away from the biggest and most obvious names like Kraftwerk, Björk and Radiohead and picking a name from the EDM world, as much as I detest the term. Hiroyuki ODA is an electronic music producer hailing from the Land of the Rising Sun, best known for his works in the uplifting trance sub-genre in which some consider him to be a master, although he does produce various other styles of music as well ranging from progressive trance to drum and bass and even Hi-NRG. Two of his songs under an alias preserved for his works with vocals in them, HSP, are my all-time top 2 songs. Both he's even offered as free downloads – what a generous guy!

 

If I said that metal is a genre that sometimes does not receive the amount of appreciation it deserves in certain circles, there are considerably fever people who consider trance or house genres that have true artistic merit. My opinion is that there are incredibly talented people working in these genres if one goes through the trouble of looking. Japan is not a country where electronic dance music is typically a very popular thing. Despite this Hiroyuki ODA's first artist album Thirty sold very well in his home country, appearing at #10 on Oricon independent album chart, one of the most representative charts in Japan, as well as #4 on the iTunes dance album chart. Even before that he was the first Japanese producer whose music was to be picked up by Armin van Buuren and released on his A State of Trance label, which is a huge deal to any artist in the EDM world. The funny thing is that as his main job ODA, whose real name is actually Hiro Kanzaki (Hiroyuki Oda is his birth name), works as an animator doing character designs for some quite popular anime shows in Japan. A man with many talents. He also typically does all the art for his own music.

 

Trance and house were genres that took me surprisingly long to learn to appreciate in relation to the typical notion people have of dance music being a relatively simple genre compared to some other styles of music. After listening to so-called EDM for just over two years now, I've really grown to appreciate both ODA's progressive and uplifting styles of trance and his later fusion of the two in more recent works as well as exploring tonally darker music. The sense of euphoria he is able to create in some of his tracks is an amazing thing to experience if you are in the right frame of mind to be particularly susceptible to receive the music. Below is the opening track Thirty from the album of the same name. It represents ODA's progressive style and isn't therefore as euphoric as his tunes in the uplifting style, but it still should give a rush to people who are able to appreciate this type of music. I normally don't say things like this, but loud volume is recommended when it comes to ODA. Enjoy.

 

 

 

[musikaladin]

 

(...) there are considerably fever people who consider trance or house genres that have true artistic merit. My opinion is that there are incredibly talented people working in these genres if one goes through the trouble of looking. (...)

 
...you might find the following interesting (whereas the chances that you already know that are pretty high ...
 

 
I first stumbled over Dj Koze when he was still a member of German project "Fischmob" in the mid 90s...
 

 
...I hope you could agree that both deserve a place in this little "Pantheon of Electronica" ...