[Musicboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zackw419 /img/forum/go_quote.gif At higher volumes they just sound really sharp and irritating. A very unnatural sound, if you will. [/B]

I had the same experience with the Denon C700. I tried them for 1 hour in a local Hi-fi store, and at a point in the treble frequency range, they are unbearable. I now have the head-direct RE0, which have a very neutral frequency range. They have many details and do not seem sharp or sibilant at any time.

 

[Judge Buff]

The S4 is a great $80 set of all round phones with good detail and range that I use everyday for almost everything. You really do need to cook them for a few days, but they are worth the wait.

 

[Hentai11]

Would you mind buying used? If so, everything in the world should be in budget at the $200-250 range. (I'm not counting customs, of course.)

 

[mvw2]

Something like the Denon C700/C751 can be a great choice, a heck of a lot of bass. The response isn't perfect, but it isn't bad either. This IEM is very tip sensitive, and the stock, tiny, single flange tip does give some top end goofiness. With a longer bi-flange, I found the response to even out. I've found the response is much more suitable if you tape over the rear port hole as well. The low end response evens out, but roll off is earlier of course. It's a trade-off, but I think it's desirable. The ported design has a rather sizable, wide bump in response around 80Hz that really needs to be cut out. Treble response is decently even actually with the right tip but does roll off slightly early which can give a weird sound. There can be some improvement with EQing on the treble end, but it won't be from a basic EQ. If you've got 3 bands, you can't fix squat. If you've got 30 bands, you can work some serious magic. A better tip choice plus a little tape does make the C700/C751 pretty accurate compared to the fun orientation it comes out of the box.

I do hold the Denon in high regard, but I find it hard to work with. I would much rather use the PFE on a regular basis. It's just an easier to work with product and is better in many ways.

A step above the PFE is the ER4 line, but you get back to being light on bass (not midbass but low frequency extension, rolls off at around 60Hz from my experience which for some is higher then acceptable). The ER4 line is the defacto IEM reference of many (15+) years. I would suggest at the very least to own a pair of the ER4S or ER4P at least once. It will in many cases be the IEM to compare and to beat versus a lot of the other products you'll use. I owned a ER4S for a while, and I only consider one earphone that I've owned to be on par and beat it only by personal preferences, and that is my Yuin OK1, not a IEM. I will probably buy another ER4S just to have around for the times I do want isolation and an incredibly good sound stage. I won't say it's god, but it's very good for a single balanced armature design. If you can come across a used set, it can even be quite affordable. I'll note the PFE is a more energetic IEM, more dynamics, works better off less power, and is a more fun to listen to and bass strong IEM then the ER4. At the $120 price point, the PFE is quite remarkable. I simply point out the ER4 because it has long been regarded as the reference IEM and does actually hold that title for good reason. Owning a pair will show you why.

 

[jant71]

I think the OP did need to burn them in more if the bass was still influencing the mids. Still, they are not for everyone.

I sold mine a while ago also. Then I purchased the PL21 and JVC HA-M750 and got $5 left over profit. The kicker is that I like both better than the C710.

The treble, treble tone and sensitivity is the missing piece. If Denon can get that to behave better that would be great.

The M750 is much like the C710 very forward and lively, easy to drive, detailed but the treble sounds right, behaves better and more predictably with every source and volume.

The RE0 and C710 are both nice for $99. They miss on either end though. The RE0 lacks texture and emotion on the low end. I know they are popular right now but that is something that slowly creeps up on you and I expect some people to fall out of love with them a couple months along. Kudos to Anthonyfirst(Tony) who got that pretty quick while I stuck with the RE0 for a while. The Denon falls short, probably to a greater degree on the treble end. If they could get the Denon bass and RE0 treble together in the same phone that would be real nice!

 

[zackw419]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jant71 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think the OP did need to burn them in more if the bass was still influencing the mids. Still, they are not for everyone. I sold mine a while ago also. Then I purchased the PL21 and JVC HA-M750 and got $5 left over profit. The kicker is that I like both better than the C710. The treble, treble tone and sensitivity is the missing piece. If Denon can get that to behave better that would be great. The M750 is much like the C710 very forward and lively, easy to drive, detailed but the treble sounds right, behaves better and more predictably with every source and volume. The RE0 and C710 are both nice for $99. They miss on either end though. The RE0 lacks texture and emotion on the low end. I know they are popular right now but that is something that slowly creeps up on you and I expect some people to fall out of love with them a couple months along. Kudos to Anthonyfirst(Tony) who got that pretty quick while I stuck with the RE0 for a while. The Denon falls short, probably to a greater degree on the treble end. If they could get the Denon bass and RE0 treble together in the same phone that would be real nice!

YES that exactly how I feel.

thanks alot.
@ mvw2- I looked at the ER series and they can definently be affordable on my budget but you said yourself the PFE's seem alot more fun, and sound like they would be better for the price. So right now im thinking the PFE's might be the closest IEM for me so far but I read a review on lack of bass, and not a very good soundstage. If that isn't true I wanna know what the PFE's lack in your opinion.


I look at this thread like 10 times a day so im still checking out all the other stuff you guys are suggesting!

And to the person who asked, yes I am willing to buy used IEM's

 

[average_joe]

PFEs have 2 filter choices and some build quality issues. From my experience, the black filters give a balanced sound with good bass, but take away some detail and shrink the soundstage to average size (smaller than the C710). The grey filters allow much more treble energy to reach your ears, which makes the bass seem weak, but the soundstage increases and there are more details.

The PFE is not a sensitive IEM, so you will either need to turn your player volume up higher than for most IEMs, or get an amp. The PFE does sound better with an amp. While I liked the PFE, they didn't compare favorably to the IE8 (although no slouch for the price), but there were a group of people that absolutely hated them. They are worn deep in the ear, and I found the Comply tips to work best for me, which can be costly over time.

The PFE's have had cracking issues and a new improved version is supposed to come out soon. Supposedly Phonak has been trying to dump the current PFE's and some people have had repeated cracking issues.

While I have not heard the S4, it may be a good choice for $80. Here are some other choices:

Mingo WM2 silver ($90) - Great bass, detail and soundstage, but more natural sounding, better with acoustic music than the C710. Flatter frequency response than the C710. Very bassy at first and a small soundstage, but opens up nice with time.

Cyclone PR2 ($85) - Haven't heard it, but sounds similar to the WM2.

Audio-Techinca ATH-CKS70 ($85) - From reviews great bass, great soundstage, good detail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jant71 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Still, they are not for everyone.

Quote:

The treble, treble tone and sensitivity is the missing piece. If Denon can get that to behave better that would be great.

I don't think the C710 is for everybody, but I don't agree with the treble tone issues. Extended burn in has done wonders for these for me. Yes, there is still a lot of treble present, but to me the biggest issues it the excessive bass in mellow songs, which makes them just plain sound bad to me!

Quote:

I sold mine a while ago also. Then I purchased the PL21 and JVC HA-M750 and got $5 left over profit. The kicker is that I like both better than the C710. The M750 is much like the C710 very forward and lively, easy to drive, detailed but the treble sounds right, behaves better and more predictably with every source and volume.

The M750 is a full sized HP, right? Where did you get yours?

 

[mvw2]

Technically speaking, the gray filter with the PFE is supposed to give the perceived flat sound. Etymotic explains this a little bit on their website. It's pretty much the same frequency response as the ER4 IEM, although the ER4 has a smoother treble response and the PFE a more extened and slightly emphasized bass response. The black filter is mic flat, or at least as close to it as possible with the given response it has. Basically, it'll be similar to a number of other earphones people are used to.

As for ER4 vs. PFE, it's kind of like this

PFE (using gray filter):
-cheaper
-more bass emphasis (+3dB)
-more bass extension
-more dynamic, bottomless
-short, to the point notes
-ultra clean
-ultra revealing
-requires little power to drive well, amp helps but not terribly needed
-does come with a lengthy warranty

ER4(S) (I only have experience with the S model):
-a little more expensive
-better stage space
-better instrument separation (exact placement)
-more texture to notes with good attack and decay duration
-smoother treble range
-more even in presentation, dynamics, energy
-prefers a strong amp behind it but is fine without one
-built like a tank

In a rough sense, they are very similar. Both are good IEMs, both good implementations of a single balanced armature design. The PFE with gray filter, both offer a quite similar frequency response and gearing. It ends up being the abundant small differences that breaks them apart and creates and creates a sizeably different audio experience between the two.

I do like to compare these two because they were comparably geared in frequency response. Most other IEMs are geared a good deal different.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvw2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Technically speaking, the gray filter with the PFE is supposed to give the perceived flat sound.

I agree technically speaking. But to my ears the black filters sound more like the high end full sized speakers I have heard. And it is my preference.

Quote:

PFE (using gray filter): -cheaper -more bass emphasis (+3dB) -more bass extension -more dynamic, bottomless -short, to the point notes -ultra clean -ultra revealing -requires little power to drive well, amp helps but not terribly needed -does come with a lengthy warranty

I think you may get a lot of opposition to your power to drive them comment.

I am not saying they are bad, IMO they are very good, but as all IEMs in this price range (well, any non $1200 custom) have their weaknesses.

 

[testrichard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pianist /img/forum/go_quote.gif I highly recommend giving Hifiman RE0 a try. For $99, they are an absolute steal and they sound better than the Triple.fi IMO - more balanced and natural. I think they are the best IEM you can get for under $200. They have a very detailed and sufficiently punchy and deep bass, fully extended and superbly detailed treble that is neither overstated nor rolled off, and smooth, accurate mids that are neither recessed nor forward. They are extremely neutral, but still fun sounding at the same time. Soundstage on them is very airy and quite wide - very good for an IEM I think.

i m actually thinking of selling my TF10 and get RE0 ~

so i would really like your opinions ~ basically my impression is all else RE0 either on par or even better but lose to TF10 on sound stage and bass.

is RE0 lost these two to TF10 but a hair or by a mile ? and if so u have any suggestion to make it up ? for example would a very good amp/DAP make up the Bass of RE0 ? or even soundstage ? cheers

test

 

[mvw2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by average_joe /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree technically speaking. But to my ears the black filters sound more like the high end full sized speakers I have heard. And it is my preference. I think you may get a lot of opposition to your power to drive them comment. I am not saying they are bad, IMO they are very good, but as all IEMs in this price range (well, any non $1200 custom) have their weaknesses.

A lot of earphones are geared the way the black filters are. It is nice that PFE provides options.

I see amping vs. unamped with a scale of significance. Some earphones really should be amped. Most all benefit to some level. The PFE is decently dynamic and controlled even off low power. It does improve with an amp, but the earphone doesn't become useless or terrible to listen to without one. For example, I run a pair of Yuin OK1 buds. I would almost suggest an amp is a necessary thing. With these, the end response is significantly dependent upon available power, and the bud will sound bright and anemic off low power but very balanced and robust off plenty of power. The scale of difference is enough to say I would say amping is a must to get a good representation of how the bud is supposed to sound like. The PFE is not like this. Amp simply improves control and dynamic range on the bottom end. The sound isn't vastly changed off a low power source, and the difference is only really noticeable at higher output levels. It's just a scale of necessity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by testrichard /img/forum/go_quote.gif i m actually thinking of selling my TF10 and get RE0 ~ so i would really like your opinions ~ basically my impression is all else RE0 either on par or even better but lose to TF10 on sound stage and bass. is RE0 lost these two to TF10 but a hair or by a mile ? and if so u have any suggestion to make it up ? for example would a very good amp/DAP make up the Bass of RE0 ? or even soundstage ? cheers test

I ran the RE0 for about a week and a half. I tried everything under the sun to like them and make them better. In the end, I sent them back to Head Direct for my now current OK1. At the time I had the V-Moda Vibe as my simple IEM. My brother had the PK2 bud and C700 IEM. I compared with these, and I could not say that the RE0 was better then any of these, even the Vibe. I had to send them back. I have since used a number of other IEMs including the PFE and ER4 that I could easily and outright say spanked everything else I had in almost every way. I've liked these better then any other earphone I've used and better then the RE0 which couldn't impress me over the mediocre stuff I had. I have contemplated giving the RE0 a second try with free ears as well as a high powered amplifier which I suspect really is needed. However, it was saddening that I could go between arguable worse earphones and call them better then the RE0 in many regards. I assume some of the aspects I disliked could be solved with tools I didn't have, mainly a high wattage amp for the significant lack of dynamics and presence, and better tips that could improve the response a little. Certain aspects of the RE0 were great. I do wonder what I would think of them now after listening to some other, better products. I think they could shine in the right circumstances, but they aren't really an out of the box "omg this is amazing" type of product. I've never personally gotten the praise they do get. I see hints of why, but from a holistic standpoint, no.

I'm not trying to deter you. For the $99 price tag, they are a very good buy. The right tips and a lot of juice powering them, and they might sound amazing and better then my experience with them, although I had the FiiO E5 and did try every tip it came with, plus the foam mod and a lot of EQing. However, you're thinking of tossing your Triple.Fis for the RE0. I'd be hesitant. Give the RE0 a try. You have 30 days where Head Direct will happily take them back if you don't like them.

 

[average_joe]

Yes, nice there are options with the PFE, unfortunately the black filters reduced the detail and soundstage for me, otherwise they would have been keepers.

I agree with what you said, but wanted to add to it. About 1 of 10 songs I had on my Sansa Fuze had volume issues, as I had to turn it to max volume, but still wanted more. IMO, since my DAP was at max volume, the signal wasn't as clean as from an amp at the same headphone dB output.

I agree, they are not useless without an amp, and do indeed sound good most of the time without an amp, but since they have a low sensitivity some DAPs may have issues driving them to desired loudness levels. With all my other IEMs I won't go over 50% volume on my Fuze, and rarely ever over 30% (although I almost never listen to the HP out anymore).

The plus is there should be no hiss with any source

 

[jant71]

Quote:

Originally Posted by average_joe /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think the C710 is for everybody, but I don't agree with the treble tone issues. Extended burn in has done wonders for these for me. Yes, there is still a lot of treble present, but to me the biggest issues it the excessive bass in mellow songs, which makes them just plain sound bad to me! The M750 is a full sized HP, right? Where did you get yours?

TBH, I would be surprised if the treble tone/timbre would change(just amount/presence settling down)with more burn in, probably more a mental change or adjustment. The treble which didn't bother me in particular but I can see where the OP is coming from. I don't think they are or like to hear them called disappointing. Outside of the PFE build quality, none of the three phones(RE0, PFE, C710) mentioned are disappointing at their prices. They are all worth a shot to see if they are your thing.

As for the M750, they are a large portable/smaller DJ-monitor like the DT250-80, V6, ESW9 I got mine from Bottom Line communications for $49 shipped. Probably not fair to really compare since the C710 can't do things that 40mm drivers can do. But again, the PL21 + the M750 = $70 shipped and I like each one better.


Quote:

Originally Posted by testrichard /img/forum/go_quote.gif i m actually thinking of selling my TF10 and get RE0 ~ so i would really like your opinions ~ basically my impression is all else RE0 either on par or even better but lose to TF10 on sound stage and bass. is RE0 lost these two to TF10 but a hair or by a mile ? and if so u have any suggestion to make it up ? for example would a very good amp/DAP make up the Bass of RE0 ? or even soundstage ? cheers test

They are pretty close, the RE0 has a more narrow soundstage but has more transparency. The Triple.fi can have more recession in the mids, some find both to have slightly recessed mids. Triple.fi has more bass. The RE0 has more separation than the UE does.

You can certainly save money with the RE0 and get the right amp and pocket some cash. I sold the Triple.fi and kept the ER4P and a bunch of cash. I also liked the increased separation, more forward mids, and better transparency.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jant71 /img/forum/go_quote.gif TBH, I would be surprised if the treble tone/timbre would change(just amount/presence settling down)with more burn in, probably more a mental change or adjustment. The treble which didn't bother me in particular but I can see where the OP is coming from. I don't think they are or like to hear them called disappointing. Outside of the PFE build quality, none of the three phones(RE0, PFE, C710) mentioned are disappointing at their prices. They are all worth a shot to see if they are your thing. As for the M750, they are a large portable/smaller DJ-monitor like the DT250-80, V6, ESW9 I got mine from Bottom Line communications for $49 shipped. Probably not fair to really compare since the C710 can't do things that 40mm drivers can do. But again, the PL21 + the M750 = $70 shipped and I like each one better.

Maybe you are right and I just got used to the treble after it settled down. To be honest I haven't listened to them for an extended period of time in over a week because I am listening to my WM2s, which I do like better. They have big bass ability, but not overpowering when it shouldn't be and very nice, smooth and accurate mids and treble which sounds much better with acoustic. I do think the C710 is great with trance!

I will have to find time and spend time listening to the C710 treble again.

How did you select the M750? I wouldn't mind pulling the trigger on a pair of full sized cans, maybe I will give those a try, thanks for the info.

 

[zackw419]

Can anyone compare the Sleek Audio SA6's to the c710's? Call me crazy but I actually REALLY enjoyed my c710's the other day. IDK if it was the album I listened to or what. They have about 150 hrs of burn in.