[David A Silva]

I have no problems with “speed” on my Pontus 2/12…

 

[George Hincapie]

I have no problems with “speed” on my Pontus 2/12…

Quite right too.

 

[sygnus21]

Is the Venus II 12th one of the faster sounding R2R DACS (EDM and rock tunes) ?
I've red more than one time that R2R dacs are not the fastest ones in general (the most natural sounding but not the fastest sounding).

I'm not sure how anyone can fully answer that question unless they've heard a bucket load of amps.

Instead of listening to some of the naysayers here, I suggest you check out the myriad of video reviews on Denafrips's DACs and see what's what, so that when you hear some of the noise here, you know it's just that.... noise.

I was set on getting the Venus, but instead opted for the Pontus II 12th-1 and used the money saved to get the Iris DDC. I did that because in addition to getting both the Pontus and Iris, and also bought the Denafrips Artemis HPA headphone amp.

After a month's use where the system is fully burned in, and set to my liking, I've no regrets on passing on the Venus. Yes, the Venus is better, but then the Terminator is even better and so on and so forth, so....

Anyway, I can assure you the Pontus will have no issues pushing out bass notes from EDM, and certainly Rock tunes, and if the Venus is better than the Pontus, it will be even better there.

Good luck.

I have no problems with “speed” on my Pontus 2/12…

Quite right too.

Agree, no "speed" issues here either.

 

[sajunky]

Is the Venus II 12th one of the faster sounding R2R DACS (EDM and rock tunes) ?
I've red more than one time that R2R dacs are not the fastest ones in general (the most natural sounding but not the fastest sounding).

I have my own opinion on this exact point, didn't want enforce, but there is no other explanation, so lets put it under criticism.

In short, a general opinion on EDM is correct, but for rock I wouldn't agree. Delta Sigma algorithm with excessive noise shaping tend to expose dominant tone. It is not faster, not at all, but with all competition tuned down, shaped transients appear to be more dynamic. The effect is emphasised when use of nested feedback opamps amplification which is deaf to low level details during fast transients. These two pairs well, but nested feedback opamps technology fails when pairing with R2R decoding, as it sounds sterile dead. I mention it, as with R2R DAC you need to change to a non-feedback discrete amp as well.

Rhythm, is not affected on R2R, just carries more nuances and harmonics are coherent across all spectrum. In Delta-Sigma upper frequencies sound harsh, no matter what filters are used. It is annoying and fatiguing on the long run.

With rock music, unless 100% synthesized (like EDM) situation is opposite. I couldn't tolerate my old CD's after my Rotel CD player gone, it was based on the PCM-63 R2R chip.

 

[]eep]

I'm not sure how anyone can fully answer that question unless they've heard a bucket load of amps.

Instead of listening to some of the naysayers here, I suggest you check out the myriad of video reviews on Denafrips's DACs and see what's what, so that when you hear some of the noise here, you know it's just that.... noise.

I was set on getting the Venus, but instead opted for the Pontus II 12th-1 and used the money saved to get the Iris DDC. I did that because in addition to getting both the Pontus and Iris, and also bought the Denafrips Artemis HPA headphone amp.

After a month's use where the system is fully burned in, and set to my liking, I've no regrets on passing on the Venus. Yes, the Venus is better, but then the Terminator is even better and so on and so forth, so....

Anyway, I can assure you the Pontus will have no issues pushing out bass notes from EDM, and certainly Rock tunes, and if the Venus is better than the Pontus, it will be even better there.

Good luck.



Agree, no "speed" issues here either.

Good to see someone use his head for critical thinking. I have been reading reviews for 40 years now, and viewing reviews on YouTube. Sure there's always bias but once you realise that you learn to read between the lines. And not all YouTubers have the same expertise and knowledge as others and certainly not a lot have the same knowledge and resources as reviewers of old (a whole team). It's not something you can learn in school and takes multiple disciplines. That plus my own acquired knowledge over the years of hands on modifying DACs makes that I take a lot of 'reviews' with a pinch of salt.

Critical thinking doesn't mean that you are always critical of people but of their arguments. And some people are more trustworthy than others. That's something that grows slowly. Anyway, to the point: speed.

Speed depends for the large part on what comes after the DAC stage. Sigma Delta DACs needs heavy filtering and a lot of amplification. R2R does not. It just passes on what it gets at nominal voltage that comes out of the ladder of resistors. Speed is no issue there. If indeed the output stage is kept to the minimum it's super fast.
But some old cd-players DACs that were R2R had analog filtering and even opamps. Here come the old stories of folklore and urban legends...

For sigma delta you can't get around an output stage with a lot of filtering and amplification. That's where the 'speed' issue comes in. And the feedback as SA Junkie said. Feedback makes for great specs but it kills the music. Again I totally agree.

It matters a lot more what amp and speakers, or headphones you use for that speed. The lower the mass and the bigger the engine, the better the acceleration. And don't forget the suspension. Just like in racing. Light and stiff materials, big powerful magnets. That's how I made my speakers. With speed in mind. Small titanium drivers, back to back, braced from behind, neodymium magnets, AMT tweeters. No filters (except the AMT of course).
With that you need the right amp. Fast without feedback. Like class A where speed is no issue because it's already on full power all the time. Or class D where power is always on max and switching is lightning fast.

It depends more on your transducers and amps than on the DAC how fast your system is. And I agree; there is no substitute for speed. No DSP, equaliser or room correction can help you with that.

Also: speed and timing is non genre specific. All music needs speed to sound natural. Compare standing next to a live drummer and compare that to a recording and you'll never forget. Speed and dynamics are often conflagrated. Dynamis means life force, movement. How live it sounds. Dynamic range is between how quiet and loud it can go, but says nothing about how fast.

I also just realized when talking about speed we actually mean high acceleration. Not m/s but m/s². F=m.a force equals mass times acceleration. That's why Yoda was so fast: the Force is strong in that one!


PS
One more thing I noticed last week. I just bought a pair of Fosi ZA3 amps because my Gato amp150 (that's the non digital one) seems to use a lot of electricity. I noticed on my usage stats. So I switched from USB out to Denafrips to Rose RS250 analog out (decent ES9038) to the Fosi's opamps. What happens is exactly what SAJunkie described. It sounds 'fast' but a bit lifeless. That's fine for watching YouTube all day. And I know there's a bunch of cheap opamps in there (for now). First I want to get a taste for how it sounds 'as is'. Then swap opamps (indeed, without the feedback loops, Audience SX52B).
I played my old trusted reference track to hear. Morelenbaum² & Sakamoto - Casa: A praya deserta. First the pianoloop was distorted (as do all DACs) but I totally missed the birds outside. The recording is in Brazil in a small studio where you can hear the room and even the birds outside. I know when they come but I totally missed all of that. Microdetail was slashed.

 

[Weissenborn]

Thanks for your replies.
I ordered a Niimbus US 5 Pro (this is a neutral, clean, transparent but dynamic playing amp).
My plan is to pair a Denafrips Venus II 12.1 with it + a Denafrips Hermes or Gaia DDC over I²S.

Plan B would be a Delta/Sigma DAC (Gustard X26 Pro).

 

[sygnus21]

Thanks for your replies.
I ordered a Niimbus US 5 Pro (this is a neutral, clean, transparent but dynamic playing amp).
My plan is to pair a Denafrips Venus II 12.1 with it + a Denafrips Hermes or Gaia DDC over I²S.

Plan B would be a Delta/Sigma DAC (Gustard X26 Pro).

Good luck on the new setup. Nothing like the enjoyment of unboxing new gear.

Oh, and trust me... cables matters. I wasn't a believer until I heard. This is where "cost of ownership" comes into play - those things needed to support your new gear

BTW, took a serious look at that Nimbus 5, and would have gotten it, but my mind had already been set on the Denafrips Artemis Headphone amp. If not for that, I would have had the Nimbus 5. Love its looks. Do let us know your thoughts on it.

Good luck.

 

[sajunky]

I played my old trusted reference track to hear. Morelenbaum² & Sakamoto - Casa: A praya deserta. First the pianoloop was distorted (as do all DACs) but I totally missed the birds outside. The recording is in Brazil in a small studio where you can hear the room and even the birds outside. I know when they come but I totally missed all of that. Microdetail was slashed.

Very good performance, thanks.

There is another test I recommend for Delta-Sigma users, test for a gong sound. Viktoria Mullova - Darf ich...

At 0:12 gong hit. On DS DAC sound is not full body, restricted to the fundamental frequency and when sound goes through multiple transformations to a different fundamental frequency, it disappears completely in the background. On the NOS R2R DAC it is heard till Mullova start to play @0:21.

Try it, quick test, it is first track on my favourite Arvo Part album.

 

[]eep]

You don't need to sell me on Arvo Pärt or Victoria Mullova. Added in Qobuz

I hear the bell but she starts playing well before it dies out. That makes it an easy test.

 

[]eep]

I just wanted to quickly share this video from and by Alvin of Vinshine Audio. Since I shop a lot on AliExpress I didn't see any harm in eventually buying it there since it is do easy and familiar. But AliExpress, Ebay and even Amazon buyers that run in to issues are left high and dry when asking for service. Well, just listen to him. He has my respect and trust.

 

[sygnus21]

I just wanted to quickly share this video from and by Alvin of Vinshine Audio. Since I shop a lot on AliExpress I didn't see any harm in eventually buying it there since it is do easy and familiar. But AliExpress, Ebay and even Amazon buyers that run in to issues are left high and dry when asking for service. Well, just listen to him. He has my respect and trust.

I never buy items from unauthorized dealers... no matter the enticing price. Why? should you ever need repairs or support, you'll be out of luck.

I'm looking to by a Teac CD player transport from a specific company, and the first thing I did was go onto Teac's site to see if the company was listed; they were so all it good. Were they not, they would not be getting my business. I got my Denafrips products direct from Vinshine Audio, and shipping was lightening fast, and items well packaged.

I don't believe in telling anyone how to spend their money as no one is going to tell me how to spend mine, but I will advise a buyer consider who they buy from, especially if you value a warranty. BTW Denafrips audio products come with a 3-year warranty, so....

And yes, Vinshine Audio specifically lists AliExpress, Amazon, and e-Bay as "unauthorized" sellers, so buyer beware.

Good luck.

 

[George Hincapie]

I presume the actual hardware is identical though? It's made by Denafrips.

 

[]eep]

I never buy items from unauthorized dealers... no matter the enticing price. Why? should you ever need repairs or support, you'll be out of luck.

I'm looking to by a Teac CD player transport from a specific company, and the first thing I did was go onto Teac's site to see if the company was listed; they were so all it good. Were they not, they would not be getting my business. I got my Denafrips products direct from Vinshine Audio, and shipping was lightening fast, and items well packaged.

I don't believe in telling anyone how to spend their money as no one is going to tell me how to spend mine, but I will advise a buyer consider who they buy from, especially if you value a warranty. BTW Denafrips audio products come with a 3-year warranty, so....

And yes, Vinshine Audio specifically lists AliExpress, Amazon, and e-Bay as "unauthorized" sellers, so buyer beware.

Good luck.

You are generalizing.

For upstarts selling via eBay etc is an easy way to reach an audience. Even more so AliExpress and Amazon. When you grow past that and become a serious business you have to provide aftermarket service.
AliExpress usually does not sell 2ndH like eBay et al, nor does Amazon. In my experience buying from AliExpress is more reliable than buying directly from the shop website. AliExpress and Amazon have a reputation to uphold. I always get my product from AliExpress. Less so from dedicated websites.

I have an issue with the system of 'authorised dealers'. That reeks of kartel and fleecing the customer for a sense of security. Believe me: support or service is never free. You always pay for it in advance. If I buy a Chinese product on AliExpress for 10% of the price of a western product from a 'reputable dealer' I don't need service. If it breaks I fix it myself, get it repaired or buy another one many times over and still be cheaper off.

That said, Vinshine is a young company driven by passion, not by money. And I think that deserves support. I know Alvin, and if he says so, I take his word for it. But I also got many products from AliExpress that are totally unknown and great products from companies that are just as dedicated. That's how I started buying Topping and SMSL products, and look where they are now.

 

[]eep]

I presume the actual hardware is identical though? It's made by Denafrips.

Yes, but it could be used, b-stock or faulty or imitation. But I also see just shops selling it, shops that are just legit.

 

[sygnus21]

You are generalizing.

For upstarts selling via eBay etc is an easy way to reach an audience. Even more so AliExpress and Amazon. When you grow past that and become a serious business you have to provide aftermarket service.
AliExpress usually does not sell 2ndH like eBay et al, nor does Amazon. In my experience buying from AliExpress is more reliable than buying directly from the shop website. AliExpress and Amazon have a reputation to uphold. I always get my product from AliExpress. Less so from dedicated websites.

I have an issue with the system of 'authorised dealers'. That reeks of kartel and fleecing the customer for a sense of security. Believe me: support or service is never free. You always pay for it in advance. If I buy a Chinese product on AliExpress for 10% of the price of a western product from a 'reputable dealer' I don't need service. If it breaks I fix it myself, get it repaired or buy another one many times over and still be cheaper off.

That said, Vinshine is a young company driven by passion, not by money. And I think that deserves support. I know Alvin, and if he says so, I take his word for it. But I also got many products from AliExpress that are totally unknown and great products from companies that are just as dedicated. That's how I started buying Topping and SMSL products, and look where they are now.

And you're clearly missing the point! And obviously the point of your own post where Alvin is saying the same.... unauthorized sales have no warranty.

And I'm well aware of what e-bay is as I've only been buying through them for over 20 years. What I don't do is buy electronics from unauthorized vendors. Period!!!

I also shop Amazon all the time and have bought many electronics from them such as Nikon gear because they "Amazon" (shipped and sold) are an authorized dealer. What I don't do is buy from their third-party marketplace unless I know for sure that vendor is an authorized dealer.

Since Amazon was/is not an authorized dealer of Denafrips products, I never looked at them for purchase. I simply went to Vinshine Audio and got my items there... with the included 3-year warranty. Before I buy any electronics, I look to see if the vendor I'm looking at is an authorized dealer. If not, I move on. That's me.

But yes, I'm well aware people buy grey market goods all the time, even in knowing the risk, and they're quite happy.... until they see that high repair bill because no warranty. And that's if they're even lucky enough to have the manufacturer even consider repairing the item.

Anyway, this is a non-debatable issue for me. You spend your money as you see fit.

Good luck