[jasonb]

I thought this may be an interesting debate. Recently I modded a Fostex T50rp and have been primarily using it instead of the Q701 I had been using. Now, comparing the two, it's obvious that between these two traits the T50rp wins in terms of accurate imaging, and the Q701 wins in terms of overall soundstage size, but mainly for it's width. The T50rp is a closed can so it's not as big and spacious sounding as the Q701, but the soundstage is more upfront and it's easier to pinpoint things on stage. The Q701 is big and wide and almost makes it sound as if the sounds are floating around you, but nothing is placed with pinpoint accuracy, and the width is definitely greater than the depth. 
 
So the question is, which is more important? More accurate imaging and staging, or just a bigger soundstage size overall?   

 

[Brooko]

Great idea for a thread.
 
For me personally - I'd prefer accuracy with imaging, and a balance of both width and depth.
 
I love my K701 for what they are - the sound stage is expansive, and can be very fun for both gaming, and for (IMO) most genres.  But if I close my eyes and listen - while I very much enjoy the presentation, it doesn't actually take me there.
 
The HD600 is far less wide but (again IMO) has great imaging (and tonality) for it's price.  Compared to the K701 it gives me far better accuracy at the cost of some stage width.  More importantly - and especially with live performances - at times I can close my eyes, and I am actually in the audience.

 

[Tsujigiri]

I'd be inclined to agree. I don't always want a large soundstage; sometimes I prefer a smaller one. But there's never an instance in which I want the imaging to be less accurate.

 

[TMRaven]

Although the two aren't really truly applicable for headphones, I get what's being said.
 
I prefer to have a headphone with solid imaging and good layering.  It can make the sound sound overall more clear, dynamic and even at times spacial, than a truly expansive soundstage headphone-- which often-time can sound too diffused.

 

[NamelessPFG]

Quote:

I'd be inclined to agree. I don't always want a large soundstage; sometimes I prefer a smaller one. But there's never an instance in which I want the imaging to be less accurate.

 
The underlined part is something I couldn't have said better myself; worse imaging means that the headphone in question is unviable for gaming, and I simply cannot have that. Pinpoint, shoot-people-through-walls-blindfolded levels of imaging (even if it takes A3D or CMSS-3D Headphone or whatnot to accomplish that) is expected of all my headphones.
 
As for soundstage size, I do prefer it large enough to where it doesn't sound like it's coming directly from next to my ear, but not at the cost of imaging. Fortunately, my prized SR-Lambda has plenty of soundstage (more than the AD700, in my book) to go with its laser-like imaging, resulting in a "Holy crap, I'm there!" sort of immersion.

 

[davidsh]

High end stax imaging over hd800 soundstage for me

 

[dleblanc343]

I've always been tempted to judge soundstage as a bigger criteria on headphones, because I wanted the sound to be as out of head like speakers as possible. As much as sounstage is important though, I think a headphone that images better is always the best bet.

So I'll go with the imaging.

A good example of imaging prevailing over soundstage would be the LCD2. Although it sort of sounds like a closed headphones at times, its ability to portray depth and layering/placement of instruments is what made it so popular. I still think the soundstage is too small on them however.

 

[jasonb]

anybody else have any words on this subject?

 

[Senndo]

Great thread idea: so let’s bring it back! Soundstage hands down for me, but without decent imaging, it doesn’t really work: thankfully the HD800S both images well and has an unmatched soundstage. Highly technically accomplished headphones without the soundstage seem rather pointless to me because they just don’t “enthrall” and the presentation isn’t engaging, which is what I want.

 

[ubs28]

Soundstage = imaging to most people actually.

For example, people say the Focal Utopia has a small soundstage. That is absolutely not the case if you take a mixer and pan the sounds -90 degrees left and 90 degrees right. You will see that the Focal Utopia has the same soundstage to work with like headphones such as the HD 800 and HD 800 S.

However the difference is in imaging. The HD 800 and HD 800S imaging pushes sounds more to the left and right while struggling with sounds in the centre. However the Focal Utopia places in instruments with laser precision within the soundstage and at the correct place. So the HD 800 and HD 800 S will sound wider due to this, however it is not because of the size of the soundstage.

The $50.0000 Hifiman Shangri-la is an other example of terrible imaging. Some people will confuse it with having a super wide soundstage, while it is simply terrible imaging pushing sounds to the left and right and having almost no sounds in the centre.

Personally, I will take imaging as soundstage on headphone will always suck. If you want a good soundstage, just buy speakers

 

[Coztomba]

Soundstage width is preference. Good imaging is essential.

 

[Sefelt103]

I only recently found out about imaging. I just thought headphones had a soundstage that varied in width. From the glossary:
Soundstage - The area between two speakers that appears to the listener to be occupied by sonic images. Like a real stage, a soundstage should have width, depth, and height.
Imaging - The sense that a voice or instrument is in a particular place in the room.
I have since learned the soundstage is a physical property of the headphone and the imaging is a property of the recording. These properties interact so a recording can be made with instruments further away or closer that changes the soundstage perception. The design of the headphone also affects how accurately the placement of instruments in the recording is presented to the listener. Consequently it can be difficult to determine the width (or depth) of a headphone or how well it images. If your amplifier incorporates a subtle DSP effect, you might associate this with a property of your headphone. Interesting thread that didn't attract many comments, there must be many of these hidden somewhere in headfi. As to which is more important, I suspect many will prefer the soundstage over imaging and some modern headphones will have had this as a focus. I'm in a minority preferring a smaller soundstage, neither is imaging that important although nice to have for a few recordings (I don't listen to classical music or use headphones for FPS gaming).

 

[Kammerat Rebekka]

Soundstage in headphones is vastly overrated imho. It is a term originally coined for speakers, where it actually makes sense.
With headphones something like ‘sound-field’ gels better with me. Most of the stuff we perceive within the music that leads us to experience sounds that seem to originate outside of the headphones is ‘baked-in-the-mix’ - ie stems from the hands of the producer at the studio.
Then again some headphones sound ‘big’ because they have big cups. Isn’t it funny how it’s always the headphones with the biggest cups and/or with the biggest gap between drivers and ears that almost universally are hailed as being the headphones with the biggest soundstage? The sound-field is larger/further away so the music naturally “grows bigger”
Sure there are small things you can do tuning-wise to make the music seem ‘further away’ like fx a dip in the upper midrange before some raised energy in the treble ie the HD800 (that also comes with the largest cups on the market), but I personally think it has far more to do with size of the sound-field and distance between ears and drivers.
Btw isn’t (good) imaging basically just the result of a somewhat linear tuning combined with low distortion?

 

[Sefelt103]

Soundstage in headphones is vastly overrated imho.

Agree with that, as vast as the soundstages

Sure there are small things you can do tuning-wise to make the music seem ‘further away’ like fx a dip in the upper midrange before some raised energy in the treble ie the HD800 (that also comes with the largest cups on the market), but I personally think it has far more to do with size of the sound-field and distance between ears and drivers.

I often have wondered how altering the FR would have anything to do with soundstage and yet my HD580 has an elevated upper midrange and seems to have a tiny soundstage compared to my DT 880 which has a larger seeming soundstage with boosted treble.

 

[Kammerat Rebekka]

Agree with that, as vast as the soundstages



I often have wondered how altering the FR would have anything to do with soundstage and yet my HD580 has an elevated upper midrange and seems to have a tiny soundstage compared to my DT 880 which has a larger seeming soundstage with boosted treble.

Well if you own the 600 ohm variant then it is tuned similarly to the HD800, small dip in the upper midrange before the big boot of energy in the treble. The place where our ears are the most sensitive is in the midrange and we detect even small corrections to the frequency response quite clearly, simply because we’re wired to listen to the human voice via communication. When you then drop the amplitude of certain frequencies there, the human brain naturally deduces said sounds to originate slightly further away than the rest of the sounds.
BUT you actually (indirectly) managed to touch upon another factor I forgot to mention, which made a huge impact on the way I think about this stuff: the difference in wearing comfort. I first noticed this whilst owning what you own, the HD580. I thought it had a slightly wider soundstage than my HD600, which basically is the same headphone. Yet the HD580 was an old used pair with hardly anything clamping down on the sides of my skull whereas I very often was reminded about the fact that I was wearing a headphone with the newer 600. When the headphone disappears the ‘soundstage’ naturally grows wider. You stop thinking about the fact that music is originating from somewhere - it merely ‘is’. I felt the same thing happening with my R70x as I wore in the headband actually.
When you combine all these things together, it’s actually not that strange that the HD800 is hailed as the ‘soundstage king’: biggest cups on the market, dipped upper midrange before the big treble and most folks I know of simply adore the lightweight and luxurious comfort that ultimately makes them forget that they’re wearing anything.