[Ingo]

For a while I've been in the "buy an old turntable for better value" camp, but lately I've been tempted by the Pro-Ject Debut III.

Here's a few things that I've been pondering:

- From what I've heard about the Ortofon OM-5E I'm sure I'll be replacing it right away. What is a good cart. on the warm side that matches well with that tonearm?

- Is there any reason to consider a Rega or Music Hall instead? I like the looks of the Pro-Ject best.

- I know that it's possible to find a really nice old table on eBay for the kind of money that I'm going to pay for this. To be honest, I'm not really that much of a gear head and I just like things that get the job done. For instance, I don't feel the need to go further with headphones than the Grado SR-225s that I have paired with my Headfive. With all that considered should I still wait it out and try to find a sweet deal on a nice old Thorens or something? Does the quality outweigh the convenience of just buying a new entry-level audiophile table like the Debut III?

Also, I'm about to blow all my Christmas money on this. Originally my father gave me money to buy a top-tier pair of backpacking boots. If I don't buy the boots now I'm just going to spend my own money on them later. This is head-fi, so I probably already know the answer, but... boots or TT?

Thanks for your thoughts in advance!

-Ingo

 

[Duggeh]

Go for the Xpression model if you possibly can. The Mk3 Xpression is a big price rise on the Mk2 but many places may still have 2s as the change was fairly recent. The Xpression has a vastly better carbon fibre tonearm, better stock cart options and better construction in the platter plinth and feet.

 

[Ingo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif Go for the Xpression model if you possibly can. The Mk3 Xpression is a big price rise on the Mk2 but many places may still have 2s as the change was fairly recent. The Xpression has a vastly better carbon fibre tonearm, better stock cart options and better construction in the platter plinth and feet.

The Xpression Mk III is what I was shooting for originally but I decided that it was too much. The Debut III is still more money than I want to spend, but it is the cheapest option that I'm willing to bother with. Not to mention, I really want a white turntable for some reason.

 

[ADD]

Hi,

I have the Project Debut III (phono version with speedbox). I am very happy with it and personally it has pretty much delivered everything I could have hoped for from my vinyl for the price. I have no doubt at all that better results can be obtained for more money, but I feel it is very hard to top the performance / price ratio of the Debut III.

I upgraded my cartridge very early on into my ownership. I swapped out the OM5 for the newly-introduced Ortofon 2M Red. Despite the user manual claims that a heavier cartridge requires the optional heavier counterweight, it actually works fine with the stock counterweight so long as you have access to a basic tracking weight gauge (I have the Ortofon one which only costs a handful of dollars).

I actually bought the 2M Red "unseen / unheard", not even having read a review. Luckily I was extremely happy with it. It resolved the extreme treble better whilst retaining all the smoothness, plus the bass was much better, as was general detail. Critically, it also has a higher output than the original cartridge which equated to around an extra 6 dB - that is pretty important when you are dealing with the very low level signals from phono cartridges.

My second upgrade was the mat - mainly because the original felt mat is difficult to maintain and clean. It started to go a bit "furry" after a few months and did not seem to be the most stable mat after that. So I purchased a Ringmat. That actually improved the sound too (slightly less muddiness), though as I say I really only intended to buy it because the original mat was a pain.

Now, having said all the above I am going to disappoint you by agreeing with Duggeh. If I had my time again, I would have gone up higher in the range and bought the XPression with the carbon fibre arm. I think this has to be a hard and fast rule for new entrants into the vinyl market and that is as follows: work out what you think is the best possible turntable for your needs and what you can afford...then get the next one up in the range at the very least - even if it means delaying the purchase for many months.

There are certain advantages to the Xpression, not the least of which is the better arm with such things as adjustable VTA. The better componentry and adjustability is going to make a difference on things where the Debut is weak. For example, the Debut is relatively poor when coping with the inner grooves - a better tonearm and adjustability will help with this. The other weakness with the Debut is a type of "static" noise buildup the longer a record plays for. As the arm moves closer to the centre of the record, static noise builds up. I can only conclude has something to do with the materials used in the turntable / platter / motor, etc. Most people would not even notice it (the resolving power of headphones is probably not a plus in this case either), but I do and it shows on my digital transcriptions. At the outer grooves, this static type of noise is around - 65 dB, but when the record is finished, it is around - 55 dB. Then if you squirt the record with an antistatic gun and return the tonearm to it's holder, it goes back to - 65 dB again. I don't think this effect would be so dramatic on a better turntable, especially one made with better materials like the Xpression.

So I would suggest saving up more for the Xpression, or being slightly disappointed long term with the Debut III. Mind you, I'm not currently contemplating upgrading now that I already have my Debut III working extremely well. But if I could go back in time, I should have spent the extra money and been happily broke now. And if I came across some sort of financial windfall in the future with no strings attached, I would probably skip the Xpression and go further up the range and get an RPM5.

But in the end, if you don't think things like noise (that you will probably strain to ever hear above the vinyl surface noise) and less than perfect tracking are going to be an issue for you, then the Debut III is probably as good as it gets. It certainly blows away CD and the Dual turntable I used to own in the early 90s.

 

[Ingo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADD /img/forum/go_quote.gif But in the end, if you don't think things like noise (that you will probably strain to ever hear above the vinyl surface noise) and less than perfect tracking are going to be an issue for you, then the Debut III is probably as good as it gets. It certainly blows away CD and the Dual turntable I used to own in the early 90s.

I think you're hitting my nail on it's head with this last paragraph. I don't think I'm going to be that concerned with the performance of the Debut III once I get it. Whatever I end up getting will be a huge improvement over what I currently have.

I still haven't decided whether or not I'm going to wait and save for something like the Xpression mk.3 or buy now and get a Debut III. If I go with the greater table it will just be to future proof a little bit in case I catch upgraditis.

 

[ADD]

Well, as I say, I think I am a pretty critical listener, since I have never liked compact disc, nor high resolution digital recordings, yet I am absolutely blown away by the sound coming out of my Debut III. It never fails to astonish me and it really pulls me into the performance. Personally, I think the sound is a couple of classes above anything at all digital that I have ever heard.

Spend an extra $100 US on the 2M Red cartridge and it makes for one heck of a source.

Just bear in mind that the one I have has gotten much better reviews than the "plain" Debut III. Apparently the integrated speed box in mine makes for quite a difference, but I have never heard the base model to compare.

 

[Ingo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADD /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just bear in mind that the one I have has gotten much better reviews than the "plain" Debut III. Apparently the integrated speed box in mine makes for quite a difference, but I have never heard the base model to compare.

What exactly does the speedbox do and why would it have an effect on the sound?

 

[ADD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingo /img/forum/go_quote.gif What exactly does the speedbox do and why would it have an effect on the sound?

The speedbox faciliates the change from 33 1/3 RPM to 45 RPM without having to re-position the drive belt.

As to why it helps the sound, a Stereophile review attempts to explain it.

 

[Duggeh]

I got a Speedbox 2 for Christmas. I'll see if I cant notice any sonic changes from it for you. I wanted it for the convenience primarily though.

 

[Ingo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif I got a Speedbox 2 for Christmas. I'll see if I cant notice any sonic changes from it for you. I wanted it for the convenience primarily though.

Hmm... Thanks Duggeh. You know, If there isn't a HUGE sound difference I might skip the speedbox because I'm not in the habit of buying or listening to 45s.

Has anyone seen any DIY "speedbox" projects out there? It seems like it would be a relatively simple circuit but I'm not all that electronics savvy. If there is a major benefit to having an external speed controller for the motor then I might consider a DIY project.

 

[dcstep]

I've got a Speedbox IISE with my Pro-ject RM10. These ease of changing speeds is the least of its advantages. It steadies the speed such that piano music is steady, with no warble or unsteadiness in the tone. If you don't listen to much piano, then you may never hear it.

Don't ask me how this works, but bass extension is also improved.

Both of these improvements are incremental. Starting without a Speedbox is a fine alternative. You can upgrade easily when financial moons align.

Dave

 

[Duggeh]

Yeah im not getting a big world of difference with it. At least im not noticing a big improvement in the sound like you'd get from a new cart.

I think that the electricity out of the wall socket in my house is pretty clean compared to most though. I never get bleed through from the fridge, washing machine etc.

I do have many 45RPM LPs though, and not having to remove my mat and fiddle around is a big plus.