Conflicting information on Cables and other audiophile components.
Aug 9, 2014 at 2:02 PM Post #196 of 241
Yeah. But be careful of thinking about it that way. Qualitative research in marketing is not just about psychology. You guys look at cultural/socio/economic differences as well, right?

That's why I say don't think of qualitative research as mainly about psychology. It's used in a lot of different ways. You might just be more familiar with the psychological perspective/application--your bias
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Yes, we also look at cultural psychology, sociological psychology, and economic psychology...ha!
 
But in all seriousness, demographic profiles are indeed an essential element in any successful marketing campaign.
 
Most importantly...
 
The five types of demographics for marketing are age, gender, income level, race and ethnicity.

 
However, this is merely the beginning. A person's specific interests are even more crucial. The more targeted a message is to its audience, the more effective it will be.
 
...I only wish there were more opportunities for ethical enterprise in the audiophile community.
 
Aug 9, 2014 at 3:47 PM Post #199 of 241
  Here is a good example of that.  I've never encountered anyone who could distinguish a 320 kbps MP3 from a WAV in a bias controlled test.  The files are radically different but the sound is the same.  The compression simply doesn't matter because the data that is removed is not audible.

 
That is exactly the reason why my media server in my listening room is packed with AAC 256 VBR files and all of the original CDs are in boxes in the garage.
 
  I believe the possiblity of difference is based on the recording.  If the recording is modern pop, it's probably recorded poorly, and doesn't matter if it's FLAC or not as it sounds very poor with a transparent setup. Test is more useful with a file with lots of information and highly detailed or quality recording.  Down converting that to hear any difference would be more telling than taking Mily Cirus's new album and comparing the bit rates.  
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It actually has nothing at all to do with the sound quality of the recording itself. When I was testing lossy vs lossless, I started with very well recorded classical and jazz pieces and AAC worked like gangbusters all the way down to 192. But when I started to test older recordings from the pre-hifi era, the bitrate requirements jumped up a bit.
 
I eventually ran across a particular CD that was a codec buster... the most difficult thing to encode without artifacting possible. In order to be completely transparent, I had to use LAME 320 or AAC 256. It artifacted at any bitrate below that. Was that troublesome CD a pristine digital recording of the Berlin Philharmonic? Nope. It was Sammy Davis Jr: The Decca Years. Something about the massed strings in these records makes medium bitrates gurgle like crazy.
 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Decca-Years-Sammy-Davis/dp/B000002OF2/
 
  Yep. I tested dozens of titles across most genres, and the modern electronic / pop albums were often the ones with no noticeable differences...although a few pop albums were among the ones with gaping chasms, so to speak. The deeper, punchier bass of the lossless version was especially startling.

 
That sounds like you didn't level match. Human ears are pretty sensitive to volume differences in bass, but codecs are able to compress bass the easiest without artifacting. Level matching is super important because most codecs change the overall volume when they encode. You also need to learn to detect what artifacting sounds like. Compression error isn't a subtle thing at all. If you are hearing "veils" and "punchier bass" and "less high frequencies" at decent bitrates, it is probably a problem with level matching or expectation bias.
 
And you have just demonstrated the blindspot by defending science with that statement. Because audio equipment contributes to an aesthetic experience, useful research would typically need to be comprised of both quantitative and qualitative, where the qualitative would take that into account.

 
I seriously doubt that mixing in subjective aesthetics would help anyone at all. If you handed me a Sunday newspaper from 1950, my subjective aesthetics would go off the chart. I would dive on the comics section like a pig in mud. But to you, it would probably be something mildly interesting that you thumb through and toss in the trash. Everyone's subjective tastes are different. You can measure and quantify them, but ultimately, all you end up with is the results of a popularity contest. Everyone knows that here at Head-Fi, people praise the equipment they happen to own and denigrate the equipment they don't have. You could do a poll as to the equipment people "like", but the results would just show you the equipment that people happen to *own* themselves.
 
Subjectivity is great for you. It doesn't necessarily apply to me. Objectivity works the same for both of us.
 
You have to define what you are going after as a hifi nut... are you going after accurate sound reproduction, or are you aiming at subjective aesthetic pleasure? If you are going for accuracy, then look for equipment with better specs. If you are going for aesthetic pleasure, just buy any halfway decent equipment and put your focus on buying lots of CDs of music you like. Myself, I start with the accurate equipment, and once I've achieved that, I move on to the music.
 
Aug 9, 2014 at 3:54 PM Post #200 of 241
  That is exactly the reason why my media server in my listening room is packed with AAC 256 VBR files and all of the original CDs are in boxes in the garage.

To really drive the point home, you could tell everyone here how gargantuan it actually is.
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(It's even more entertaining due to the fact that you can fit over a thousand lossy albums on something like a 160 GB iPod.)
 
Aug 9, 2014 at 4:13 PM Post #201 of 241
  That sounds like you didn't level match. Human ears are pretty sensitive to volume differences in bass, but codecs are able to compress bass the easiest without artifacting. Level matching is super important because most codecs change the overall volume when they encode. You also need to learn to detect what artifacting sounds like. Compression error isn't a subtle thing at all. If you are hearing "veils" and "punchier bass" and "less high frequencies" at decent bitrates, it is probably a problem with level matching or expectation bias.

 
Hmm...how do you level match an iPod? (I did listen at various volumes and noticed the same differences.)
 
Aug 9, 2014 at 4:17 PM Post #202 of 241
  Hmm...how do you level match an iPod?

 
What I did was to run a CD player and an iPod using line out through two preamps to level match the different sources. Then I patched the output of the preamps into my receiver so I could switch back and forth. I ripped a CD at lossless, and a range of AAC and MP3 settings and compared the rips directly to the original CD.
 
Aug 9, 2014 at 4:30 PM Post #203 of 241
  What I did was to run a CD player and an iPod using line out through two preamps to level match the different sources. Then I patched the output of the preamps into my receiver so I could switch back and forth. I ripped a CD at lossless, and a range of AAC and MP3 settings and compared the rips directly to the original CD.

 
I have nooo idea how to do what you described in those first two sentences. Guess I'll learn when the time comes!
 
Aug 9, 2014 at 4:54 PM Post #204 of 241
A preamp is just a volume knob. You could run the outputs of the CD player and iPod through cassette decks or headphone amps... anything that can adjust the volume level. You could probably get away with just one preamp and balance one to the other.
 
Aug 9, 2014 at 5:01 PM Post #205 of 241
I seriously doubt that mixing in subjective aesthetics would help anyone at all. If you handed me a Sunday newspaper from 1950, my subjective aesthetics would go off the chart. I would dive on the comics section like a pig in mud. But to you, it would probably be something mildly interesting that you thumb through and toss in the trash. Everyone's subjective tastes are different. You can measure and quantify them, but ultimately, all you end up with is the results of a popularity contest. Everyone knows that here at Head-Fi, people praise the equipment they happen to own and denigrate the equipment they don't have. You could do a poll as to the equipment people "like", but the results would just show you the equipment that people happen to *own* themselves.

Subjectivity is great for you. It doesn't necessarily apply to me. Objectivity works the same for both of us.

You have to define what you are going after as a hifi nut... are you going after accurate sound reproduction, or are you aiming at subjective aesthetic pleasure? If you are going for accuracy, then look for equipment with better specs. If you are going for aesthetic pleasure, just buy any halfway decent equipment and put your focus on buying lots of CDs of music you like. Myself, I start with the accurate equipment, and once I've achieved that, I move on to the music.


Yep, just about sums it up completely....
 
Aug 9, 2014 at 5:29 PM Post #206 of 241
  A preamp is just a volume knob. You could run the outputs of the CD player and iPod through cassette decks or headphone amps... anything that can adjust the volume level. You could probably get away with just one preamp and balance one to the other.

 
I thought level matching was about pinpoint accuracy, but it seems that you are suggesting doing it by ear. If that is so, I did not notice any difference in volume between any of the files I tested. Some of the frequencies, instruments, etc. were merely distorted in the lossy versions.
 
Aug 9, 2014 at 5:47 PM Post #207 of 241
Is there a way to take the RMS of the track to level match?  How do you level match music track precisely if you are comparing gear.  For comparing the same track with lossless and lossy the amplitude would not change I would think.
 
Aug 9, 2014 at 6:05 PM Post #208 of 241
  Is there a way to take the RMS of the track to level match?  How do you level match music track precisely if you are comparing gear.  For comparing the same track with lossless and lossy the amplitude would not change I would think.

 
Yeah, I mean, you can convert a lossless file to a really low bit rate like 25 kbps to easily compare the differences. I don't think the volume level would change.
 
Aug 9, 2014 at 6:53 PM Post #209 of 241
I thought level matching was about pinpoint accuracy, but it seems that you are suggesting doing it by ear. If that is so, I did not notice any difference in volume between any of the files I tested. Some of the frequencies, instruments, etc. were merely distorted in the lossy versions.

Run pink noise or failing that a 1kHz sine wave through each side and adjust the output level to match on a digital multi meter across the output, using the volume pots, at a level you're comfortable with. Audacity will generate both white and pink noise and individual sine waves at any frequency.
 
Aug 9, 2014 at 7:08 PM Post #210 of 241
  I thought level matching was about pinpoint accuracy, but it seems that you are suggesting doing it by ear. If that is so, I did not notice any difference in volume between any of the files I tested. Some of the frequencies, instruments, etc. were merely distorted in the lossy versions.

 
What you're describing doesn't reflect how lossy works. There isn't an overall distortion at medium bitrates. It's momentary artifacting in specific parts of the music caused by too little bandwidth available to render the sound. Either the sound can be rendered or it goes splat for a second. As you raise the bitrate, the artifacts become fewer and fewer until they disappear entirely.
 
Overall coloration of the sound or higher distortion overall at high bitrates doesn't sound like lossy artifacting. It sounds like expectation bias, problems with level matching, too much time between samples (auditory memory), or some sort of distortion being added by the equipment itself.
 
It is much better to match levels using measurements. You can get a ballpark idea by balancing by ear, but if the differences seem subtle to you, it's entirely possible that the levels aren't balanced perfectly and there really isn't a difference at all. That's how bias works. Everyone is subject to it.
 
  Yeah, I mean, you can convert a lossless file to a really low bit rate like 25 kbps to easily compare the differences. I don't think the volume level would change.

 
I don't know about other encoding programs, but iTunes drops the volume a dB or two when it encodes. I think it's trying to prevent clipping in hot mastered recordings as it encodes.
 

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