[hybridamp]

Hey guys, just curious if "Closed" Design headphones provide better bass response, than open designs?

 

[Mike Walker]

Closed headphones have a theoretical (and sometimes, though certainly not always) realized advantage in deep bass response. The reason? There are a couple, actually. First, with open 'phones, some of the out of phase bass that escapes from the rear of the "open" 'phones reaches the ear, and since the wavelengths are VERY long (in comparison to the distance from the back of the driver, around the housing, and into the ear), it partially cancels.

There's another reason too. The earcups from closed 'phones create an airtight (or nearly airtight) seal between the driver's diaphram and your eardrum. Move a diaphram inside a vacuum sealed enclosure with your eardrum on the other end, and guess what happens? Your eardrum is either pushed, or pulled, with far greater efficiency...especially at low frequencies. This principle is easy to demonstrate with a speaker system with an active "woofer" and a "passive radiator" (such as my Polk S-8s, and many others). Lightly push back on the woofer cone with your finger, and the passive radiator will not only move forward by a like amount, but it will stay in that extended position until you release the woofer. The exact same happens with closed headphones.

Given that the above is true, it's actually amazing that some open 'phones have quite excellent bass. But many do, including the Sennheiser HD-580/600/650, and the cheap little Koss KSC-35/Porta-Pro/Sporta Pro. That extended bass CAN be achieved with both design methods (open and closed) is a very good thing, since many of us are quite bothered by the colorations (resonances, frequency response irregularities) that sometimes plague closed 'phones.

There are tradeoffs to both design types. Like so many things in life, you must decide which characteristics are most important to you, and which compromises you can most tolerate. There is no absolute "right" or "wrong" design-type. There are truly excellent headphones in both "open" and "closed" configurations.

 

[hybridamp]

Hey, thanks for the quick response, it was very helpful.

Are SennHeisers generally > Grados in terms of bass response?

Just to put it all out on the open, I demo'd some SR-325s tonight and was simple stunned about the performance of the phones, Above about 150hz, HOWEVER, below that, I was far from impressed. It seemed that Grado focused their attention of immaculate detail in the sound reproduction on everything, except deep bass frequencies. Just wondering if there is anything out there with better responses...

 

[Mike Walker]

Few companies, even very good ones, have a "company sound" that can be generalized. SOME Sennheisers have better bass extension than most Grados (by the way Grado IS one of the few manufacturers with a "company sound"...there is a distinctly similar "voicing" among most of their models). Some Sennheisers (including classics like the HD-414, and most of their past and current "on the ear" models) have far poorer bass extension than Sennheisers best open models (HD-580/600/650).

You've got good ears. Grados DO tend to have a forward midrange and treble, emphasizing "detail", while remaining somewhat lean in the bass, particularly the upper bass. A pet peeve of the late speaker designer Roy Allison was his belief that the vast majority of speaker systems had too little energy in the lower midrange/upper bass...what he referred to as the "power region" of the musical spectrum. If you tend to agree, then Grados are definitely not for you.

Try the Sennheiser HD-580 or HD-600 (or 650 if your budget allows, but don't fret if it doesn't...it isn't necessary to spend THAT much to get truly high quality sound) for a completely different perspective, including a "meatier" upper bass, and greater bass extension (than most Grados).

Really want bass "weight"? I have a pair of Koss A-130s that I keep by my bedside for late night listening (mostly to XM satellite radio, fm, mp3s, and tv sound from DirecTV). All of those sources benefit from a frequency balance which de-emphasizes detail...since they all are of less than "audiophile approved" quality. 'Phones from the Grado school of thought would simply scream at me what's wrong with these sources, rather than (as my A-130s do) simply allowing me to enjoy the music. And the A-130s have bass impact that's quite profound, and extends into the basement (20hz is quite clearly audible, even at low levels with these 'phones). But again, their tonal balance is WAY over the line on the "warm" side of neutrality. And I mean WAY over. The over-emphasized bass is great at the relatively quite volumes I listen to in bed, but I sure wouldn't choose these 'phones for tracking or mixing in my studio! However, if you want something that's COMPLETELY opposite of what you heard from Grados, well...this is it!

 

[dj_mocok]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Walker There are tradeoffs to both design types. Like so many things in life, you must decide which characteristics are most important to you, and which compromises you can most tolerate. There is no absolute "right" or "wrong" design-type. There are truly excellent headphones in both "open" and "closed" configurations.

having said that, then us, as headphone enthusiasts, are better off having at least one closed and one open air headphone then ?
now at least someone justify my decision to get at least one open and one closed cans.... i dont have to feel so guilty now...heheheh...

 

[hybridamp]

Interesting. I am seriously looking into picking up a pair of 600s or 650s. (keeping the SR-325s also, dont get me wrong, the quality was astonishing)

Any opinions on the SennHeiser Pro 265 or 270s? They are closed design, but seem to have interesting possibilities for a decently smooth response throughout the spectrum, with slightly more emphasis on the lower range...

Thanks again!

 

[dj_mocok]

the only "company sound" i can think of is STOCK EARBUDS company sound... mostly crap...

 

[Mike Walker]

Djmokok, I'm the wrong one to ask about owning multiple headphones. I am a headphone ADDICT! I own MANY of the models mentioned here, open and closed, and use different 'phones for different purposes (Sony MDR-7506 in my studio, for instance, Sennheiser HD-600 for "serious" listening to stereo system with quality sources, Koss A-130 for late night listening in bed to less than stellar sources, Sennheiser PX-100 for portable use, Sony EX-70lp for SUPER portable use (entire system in a shirtpocket), plus Koss KSC-35, Sporta Pro, Porta Pro, Beyerdynamic DT-990 Pro, and too many damn others to mention.

Which is a long way of saying YES OF COURSE you need multiple headphones! As a young audiophile, when I just wanted to make a change to the overall sound of my system, something I could really HEAR, I would change the phone cartridge. Today, I would buy a new pair of headphones!

 

[dj_mocok]

me trying to steer away from mike walker... fearing that the headphone addiction will be passed to me....
i'd ended up with stacks of headphones and an empty wallet and maybe minus sign on my account... hehe...

im a newbie too... i think i would start with 2. (1 open and 1 closed)... if i own more in the future... at least i know who is to blame, hehe...

 

[Buster Sword]

Chastity once told me this, and testing it out i believe her:
Quote
Open cans allows air to pass to the drivers to allow for a fuller bass response, since you need air to make bass. Some of the newer hi-end closed cans have air passages to allow for some air intake. I believe Beyer makes a set like this. (Don't ask me which model, I don't know.)

Closed cans compensate by pushing the driver harder, but this isn't the same, and can sound forced or distorted because of it.

and..
Disco STU
Minimal harmonic distortion as compared to a closed headphone which will induce resonant frequency plus it dampens the bass making it less sharp...yadda yadda.
open will have sharp bass (less muddy) and less resonance.
ME
Apparently this isn't always true in all phones. My cheap Panasonic Closed, RP-HT355 has very slamming bass and is even respectable for hitting nice organ notes, the way i hear, Its not real distorted or boomy, but rather percussive with some enoug boom to it. I say these phones are rather bass heavy.

And then some open high end phones lack bass.

 

[averydonovan]

I think that because a lot of the bass in closed phones will be reflected sound from the inside of the earcups it will sound more like speakers, which also depend a lot on reflected/reverberated bass. Open phones only have the sound coming from the drivers, rather than reflected sound adding to it, so the bass does sound different. While closed phones will have more bass you can feel, open phones will have more bass you can hear. This is kind of a generalization, though, and of course IMHO.

My Ultrasone HFI-650s have more impact in higher frequencies compared to my HD600s, and can be more fun for certain music, but for music with deep bass the HD600s do better since it has more control for deeper bass. The HFI-650s give me a more immediate sound, while the HD600s give that "listening in an auditorium with a darn good speaker system" sound. Each is very unique compared to the other in sound signature, and I like them both for certain music and uses so I have both around. Multiple headphones keep your ears happier than just having one set to listen to all the time.

Choices: Good for the ears, bad for the wallet

 

[lini]

Welcome back, Mike, btw. Haven't seen any posts of yours for quite a while... How are you doing?

Greetings from Hannover!

Manfred / lini

 

[Mike Walker]

So "Chastity" says you "need air to make bass". Well Chastity must be the new Einstein around here. Hey, you need air to make SOUND. But guess what? There is air trapped in the cavity created when you put on closed 'phones, thus creating a seal. So there is "air" already in there (just as there is "air" already in "closed" acoustic suspension speakers...it is the trapped air that provides the springiness to an otherwise ridiculously compliant ("floppy") disphram (in this type of speakers).

Without "air" there's no sound. But air flowing INTO THE CAVITY BETWEEN DIAPHRAM AND EARDRUM CAN ONLY REDUCE BASS RESPONSE. It can NEVER increase it. Don't take my word for it, ask a headphone (or speaker) designer. This is why speakers have enclosures...to trap, or manipulate (as in the case of bass reflex or passive radiator types) the "back wave" (diaphrams in either speakers or headphones produce just as much sound off the back of the diaphram as the front. What is done with this sound is critically important to the sound quality of the design.

At LONG wavelengths...longer than the distance from the back of the driver, around the side of the earcup, and into the ear...the "backwave" ALWAYS partially cancels the frontwave. Then how can "open" headphones have any bass? Since the cancellation is a known effect, drivers can be designed to compensate. For example, if it's known that a given design will "rolloff" bass at 6db per octave below 100hz, a driver (and it's enxlosure) can be designed with a complimentary bass boost (6db at 50hz, 12db at 25hz). Voila...flat, extended response from an "open" design. Using this method, electrostatic (and ribbon) panel-type speakers can be designed with bass response to 50hz or below, despite the fact that they shouldn't have much bass at all (due to the untrapped backwave being allowed to freely enter the room). There are tradeoffs, however...these bass boosts cause the diaphram to work harder...i.e. to produce greater cone excursions for the same level of response (as in a closed design). This isn't much of a problem with well designed headphones, as excursions are so small anyway. But it CAN be a problem with speakers...limiting how loudly they may reproduce low bass before severe distortion sets in.

If a headphone has "bass ports" (actually the ftc should get involved in this terminology, since the wavelength is OBVIOUSLY too short for these ports to have any damn thing to do with bass! The laws of physics are set in stone...bass equals LONG wavelengths...hence long paths of travel for the backwave in a TRUE "bass reflex design. They CAN relieve some of the pressure on the back of the diaphram which can lead to colorations (resonances) in poorly designed closed 'phones, and ai suspect that, other than marketing, this is what these "ports" are really about.

Note...a port that opens "to the world" from the rear of a diaphram on a closed 'phone doesn't really do anything to affect the sealed cavity between diaphram and eardrum. Think of it this way...it's like mounting your speaker cone in a wall, rather than a box enclosure. If your room is airtight, then the fact that the back of the speaker cone is openly exposed in the next room does nothing to affect the seal in the listening room (and yes, I realize that most rooms aren't airtight...nor do they need to be. This is an EXAMPLE).

So we need "air" to produce bass, do we? Good one. Reminds me of the new restaurant on the moon...great food, no atmosphere!

 

[Mike Walker]

Hi Lini. Thanks for the welcome. Actually I never really left...I still checked the boards every day. I simply got bored with discussions about the virtues of burn-in, and the same old "mine is better than yours" talk. The frustrating thing to me is how it seems to me that even a rationed, well argued post proving someone wrong never seems to change anyone's mind here. And if nobody's mind is ever changed, then we're not "discussing" anything. We're talking AT each other, rather than exchanging ideas. BORING, and pointless!

Still, HERE I AM? A giant contradiction, given what I just wrote. Hell, I'm human...who ever said we (human beings) were consistent?!

 

[hybridamp]

Yes, well, I had figured as much with the open-air drivers needing a little help with the longer wavelengths, so I carefully added 1dB of boost, centered at 45hz with a bandwidth extending to 150hz, with my digital paremetric EQ. However, with each dB step, the bass because more distorted and less defined, which didn't make a whole lot a sense. lol.

Given that I am new to the whole headphone world, maybe this is normal?

As it turns out, the headphones that got me interested in the whole world of hi-fi headphones were a pair of cheap AltecLansing Closed Design headphones (with built-in microphone even), I purchased for $40 to use for conferencing, I happened to play some music and was shocked. For cheap headphones, their bass response, and mid-tone quality is unbelievable. So I had figured a true hi-fi headphone should be more than I could ever dream for, but now I just hope there is way better out there (in the same price range) than SR-325s.

Here is a link to the Altecs I have, for reference:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....3&type=product