CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
Sep 29, 2015 at 8:00 PM Post #331 of 25,973
@Rob Watts

Almost every other HighEnd DAC maker incl MSB are using femto master/output clocks for zero jitter and often do a re-clocking of the signal with a very precise sound as a result, but i have never heard what type of clocks you are using??

Is it femto grade clocks or better in the DAVE for example?


As a side note:

Have a MSB Analog DAC with ultra stable femto clocks on a audition against the
Chord Hugo and QBD76 on max buffer, and its a big improvment against the Hugo in fact!

Its clearly the weakest in my setup, but the QBD76 holding up pretty good against the MSB, but sounding a bit sweeter than the MSB and a bit more bassy and bit less transparent.



yeah I wish chord make a femto clocks for hugo and other products with reasonable price ?
is it a huge gap betwen msb and hugo ?
please do a mini review of both in deatail , imaging and soundstage ?
 
Sep 29, 2015 at 8:39 PM Post #332 of 25,973
yeah I wish chord make a femto clocks for hugo and other products with reasonable price ?
is it a huge gap betwen msb and hugo ?
please do a mini review of both in deatail , imaging and soundstage ?


England vs USA in ice hockey =)

I can only wright a small mini review for now because in Sweden the time is 2:35 in the night here, so i only describe the differences in short:

From the first note you hear a sound from that possess clarity and high separation with outstanding precision and more dept to every tone with less colorisation, that i do think the Hugo got in the upper band some times.

The Analog also got more air btw every note and having a dryer and a bit more refined lower end than the Hugo.
It also handles complex music or compressed music better because of the ultra good separation / dept and precision and jitter resistant that gives less distortion in the MSB.

So if MSB just got like 1400 taps DSP processing power according to
Rob against 27000 in the Hugo, it still sounds whay better, so i think it is someting else that do the trick, and that is most likley the femto clocks.


I feel that the Hugo also do not handle jitter so well, because i hear a "pixel effect" digital distortion in the upper mids that are a factor in lossy compressed music, that i do not here on the Analog.

The QBD76 HDSD on the other side is more like the Analog but with deeper bass impact and is a little sweeter in the highs.

So my score in high end dac:s to night is as follows:

1. MSB Analog: 9/10 points.
Could had a little more body in the mids and impact in the lower end.

2. Chord QBD76 HDSD: 8/10 points.
Pretty close to the MSB Analog with great precision and ultra clarity / separation and dept, but with greater impact in the lower end!

3. Chord Hugo Black 6/10 points.
It plays the music more narrower the ears, and have not the ultra precision and clarity or fluidity in the sound like the big High End boys. The the small but hearable digital distortion caused buy jitter on compressed music are not so nice either. The background are not so dark and it sounds more like a small compact "walkman" product if you compare it to the Ultra High End division.

It needs femtio clocks i think would do it great for the clarity that comes from precision in the timing.

So i hope i can place the DAVE in the top with 10/10 points when i review it next time!

And if Rob reads this it would be very interesting of his thoughts about the
DAVE vs MSB Analog if he have compared the DAVE with other DACs ?
 
Sep 30, 2015 at 12:05 PM Post #333 of 25,973
.... if Rob reads this it would be very interesting of his thoughts about the
DAVE vs MSB Analog if he have compared the DAVE with other DACs ?

 
 
forum politics may tie Rob's hands re'  commenting on competitors' products.
 
 
Believe me when I say I am not someone who likes to see products priced out of the reach of the average working-class person, but, in spite of that, I have a feeling the DAVE might, by comparison with the price-performance of competitors' products, turn out to be a relative bargain in the world of high-end hi-fi. It's nice to see some 'first impressions' trickling into the thread, from hi-fi shows, and we're so near to seeing some bona-fide reviews-proper in the hi-fi press. I'm as eager as the rest of you to see how things pan out for this DAC.
 
Seems to me, there are probably quite a number of very concerned competitors in the marketplace, with £20-60k products, nervously watching and waiting to see how good the £8k DAVE turns out to be. If DAVE matches or (hurrah!) beats their products, how on earth will they be able to continue to justify their much-higher pricing? 
rolleyes.gif

 
This product may prove to be much more than a DAC - it may even change the high-end DAC marketplace, entirely. Wouldn't that be something? 
regular_smile .gif
  (vindication for Rob, too, for sticking to his principles, in spite of all the naysayers, over the years).
 
Sep 30, 2015 at 7:13 PM Post #334 of 25,973
   
 
forum politics may tie Rob's hands re'  commenting on competitors' products.
 
 
Believe me when I say I am not someone who likes to see products priced out of the reach of the average working-class person, but, in spite of that, I have a feeling the DAVE might, by comparison with the price-performance of competitors' products, turn out to be a relative bargain in the world of high-end hi-fi. It's nice to see some 'first impressions' trickling into the thread, from hi-fi shows, and we're so near to seeing some bona-fide reviews-proper in the hi-fi press. I'm as eager as the rest of you to see how things pan out for this DAC.
 
Seems to me, there are probably quite a number of very concerned competitors in the marketplace, with £20-60k products, nervously watching and waiting to see how good the £8k DAVE turns out to be. If DAVE matches or (hurrah!) beats their products, how on earth will they be able to continue to justify their much-higher pricing? 
rolleyes.gif

 
This product may prove to be much more than a DAC - it may even change the high-end DAC marketplace, entirely. Wouldn't that be something? 
regular_smile%20.gif
  (vindication for Rob, too, for sticking to his principles, in spite of all the naysayers, over the years).

it's about time,I hope we can see a new benchmark at this price , if it happens I will save up to buy one ,
I highly doubt it ,names like msb ,lampizator ... it' hard to beat , if you want that you have to test against these big boys then introduce something we never heard before . if the digital can sound better than vinyl then that's the new benchmark . I highly doubt it since robb says it rich and has massive soundstage only this is not good enough. with only 1 chip and it's not r2r it's very hard job .
 
Sep 30, 2015 at 8:13 PM Post #335 of 25,973
it's about time,I hope we can see a new benchmark at this price , if it happens I will save up to buy one ,

I highly doubt it ,names like msb ,lampizator ... it' hard to beat , if you want that you have to test against these big boys then introduce something we never heard before . if the digital can sound better than vinyl then that's the new benchmark . I highly doubt it since robb says it rich and has massive soundstage only this is not good enough. with only 1 chip and it's not r2r it's very hard job .


Yes i highly doubt that it can sound better than the MSB, maybe better bass impact, but other than that i can not find any direct flaws in the sound, so i think it will posses the same nice sound with great dept and will present the sound characteristics in a slight different way, but is it better than the 90.000$ MSB Select DAC, i wish, because then its a bargain! :wink:
 
Sep 30, 2015 at 10:16 PM Post #336 of 25,973
  You'll be pleased to know that our dealers in the US have already started taking orders. We're still finishing Dave off, but expect to begin shipping mid to late October.

If US dealers are already taking orders then there must be a price set. Converting the UK price to USD does not necessarily define it since there are additional costs of importing, distributing, and supporting the product in the US. Someone must know what the US price is set at, and it would be most helpful and appreciated if it could be determined and shared. TIA!
 
Oct 1, 2015 at 4:55 AM Post #337 of 25,973
  If US dealers are already taking orders then there must be a price set. Converting the UK price to USD does not necessarily define it since there are additional costs of importing, distributing, and supporting the product in the US. Someone must know what the US price is set at, and it would be most helpful and appreciated if it could be determined and shared. TIA!

 
contact Jay at Bluebird Music he'll be able to assist you (Chord's US/Canada Distributor), hth.
 
Link: http://www.bluebirdmusic.com/contact.html
 
Oct 1, 2015 at 7:35 AM Post #338 of 25,973
  it's about time,I hope we can see a new benchmark at this price , if it happens I will save up to buy one ,
I highly doubt it ,names like msb ,lampizator ... it' hard to beat , if you want that you have to test against these big boys then introduce something we never heard before . if the digital can sound better than vinyl then that's the new benchmark . I highly doubt it since robb says it rich and has massive soundstage only this is not good enough. with only 1 chip and it's not r2r it's very hard job .

 
My Chord Blu Transporter linked to my QBD76 DAC sounded 100% better than my hi-end £8,000 RRP (excluding my Keith Monks RCM...another £3k +) turntable set up.  Plus the hassle of turntable maintenance & care & cleaning of the vinyl... the Blu & QBD76 wins hands down on all fronts.  So I recently sold my turntable set-up.
 
If DAVE is even better than the Blu & QBD76 set-up then £8k is a bargain plus you get a built in headphone amp as an added bonus.
 
Oct 1, 2015 at 10:54 AM Post #339 of 25,973

Beolab
I agree it is hard to imagine an £8k product outperforming products that market at 5x the price or more. The old adage of “You get what you pay for” springs to mind. However, I think we may still be suitably impressed by the performance of DAVE. I say this because when I listen to other companies designers/execs talk about their own technology I am not hearing the same technological objectives as those stated by RW with DAVE. Apart from Chord and Meridian I am hearing something more akin to a ‘me too movement’ from industry execs, much in the same way the industry previously went down the ‘off the shelf’ DSP chip route. Right now the easy route is ‘better clocks’.  You can buy them off the shelf and put them in your product. Anyone can do it. It has nothing to do with getting superior data for instance or reconstructing a better waveform or being more musical but it has a noticeable affect on what we hear because it improves ‘focus’ and that is selling product.
 
Rob Watts proved with the DAC64 that moving with the crowd was not the best way to drive performance. From the interviews I have read and heard over recent months, Rob seems not to lay too much store by extreme clocks. This is above my understanding but perhaps it is because he understands sufficiently what is going on in the mathematics of waveform re-construction and he believes he can circumvent what these expensive clocks achieve by other means.
 
What Chord (Rob) and Meridian (via their MQA protocol) are doing in their own way right now is addressing the shortcomings of D-A conversion, waveform re-construction itself. This approach imo promises to deliver far more musical information than ‘focus’ alone will deliver. I think what Rob has changed in the DAVE DAC compared to HUGO (a mobile, price restricted, product) and QBD76 (a product based upon 2008 technology) tells its own story too. Rob saw fit to achieve a THD figure of 0.000015% and work at -350db in the digital domain when developing the product. It makes you wonder how much information is available in that environment. With DAVE he refined the WTA filter with a new algorithm, re-designed the FIR filter, changed the noise shaping arrangement, added a state of the art digital pre-amp and added 2x ultra-high-speed coax 768kHz dual-data mode for use with future-unannounced Chord Electronics products. We all know that in HiFi if you improve one thing it often highlights some new shortcoming. In every aspect Rob has broken new ground with this product.
 
Rob also said in his presentations that this was a ‘no cost limit’ development exercise. I suspect this may be Chord looking to re-claim the industry high ground they held with the DAC64 in 2001 and even if they do not achieve that lofty aim at a price limit of £8k, (given their track record) I suspect they will not be far off the mark.
 
Some of DAVE’s design milestones and objectives for DAVE are in this interview (for those that haven’t already seen it).
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D80iu7ifXsOo&sa=U&ved=0CBkQtwIwAWoVChMIsfj8zZuhyAIVQY8NCh2l6wnE&usg=AFQjCNFnzVenQhRnEW_Rrbzog3Pza-Nvmw

 
Oct 1, 2015 at 6:30 PM Post #341 of 25,973
To continue the musicality theme I have found it interesting that there is an assumption in audio that musicality comes from good timing, hence DSD manufacturers have been using ever faster clocks to improve this weakness in the DSD format. However I have noticed that musicality can be affected significantly by placement/setup of 3 way speakers. How is this possible if it is all down to timing issues? A monitor speaker on the other hand is nigh on impossible to affect musicality in the setup. If the system is musical it pretty much stays musical whatever. I wonder if the complexity of 3 ways is showing us part of the answer. Could it be phase too that affects our perception of musicality. I seem to remember Rob mentioned recently that DAVE's sound stage goes deeper with PCM based material whilst DSD goes wider. Only phase can do this. Perhaps DSD has a skewed phase problem?

 
 
  There are actually two independent issues going on with DSD that limits the musicality - and they are interlinked problems.
 
The first issue is down to the resolving power of DSD. Now a DSD works by using a noise shaper, and a noise shaper is a feedback system. Indeed, you can think of an analogue amplifier as a first order noise shaper - so you have a subtraction input stage that compares the input to the output, followed by a gain stage that integrates the error. With a delta sigma noise shaper its exactly the same, but where the output stage is truncated to reduce the noise shaper output resolution so it can drive the OP - in the case of DSD its one bit, +1 or -1 op stage. But you use multiple gain stages connected together so you have n integrators - typically 5 for DSD. Now the number of integrators, together with the time constants will determine how much error correction you have within the system - and the time constants are primarily set by the over-sample rate of the noise shaper. Double the oversampling frequency and with a 5th order ideal system (i.e. one that does not employ resonators or other tricks to improve HF noise) it converges on a 30 dB improvement in distortion and noise.
 
So where does lack of resolution leave us? Well any signal that is below the noise floor of the noise shaper is completely lost - this is completely unlike PCM where an infinitely small signal is still encoded within the noise when using correct dithering. With DSD any signal below the noise shaper noise floor is lost for good. Now these small signals are essential for the cues that the brain uses to get the perception of sound stage depth - and depth perception is a major problem with audio - conventional high end audio is incapable of reproducing a sense of space in the same way one can perceive natural sounds. Now whilst optimising Hugo's noise shaper I noticed two things - once the noise shaper performance hit 200 dB performance (that is THD and noise being -200 dB in the audio bandwidth as measured using digital domain simulation) then it no longer got smoother. So in terms of warmth and smoothness, 200 dB is good enough. But this categorically did not apply to the perception of depth, where making further improvements improved the perception of how deep instruments were (assuming they are actually recorded with depth like a organ in a cathedral or off stage effects in Mahler 2 for example. Given the size of the FPGA and the 4e pulse array 2048FS DAC, I got the best depth I could obtain.
 
But with Dave, no such restriction on FPGA size applied, and I had a 20e pulse array DAC which innately has more resolution and allows smaller time constants for the integrator (so better performance). So I optimised it again, and kept on increasing the performance of the noise shaper - and the perception of depth kept on improving. After 3 months of optimising and redesigning the noise shaper I got to 360 dB performance - an extraordinary level, completely way beyond the performance of ordinary noise shapers. But what was curious was how easy it was to hear a 330 dB noise shaper against a 360 dB one - but only in terms of depth perception. My intellectual puzzle is whether this level of small signal accuracy is really needed, or whether these numbers are acting as a proxy for something else going on, perhaps within the analogue parts of the DAC - I am not sure on this point, something I will be researching. But for sure I have got the optimal performance from the noise shaper employed in Dave, and every DAC I have ever listened too shows similar behaviour.
 
The point I am making over this is that DSD noise shapers for DSD 64 is only capable of 120 dB performance - and that is some 10 thousand times worse than Hugo - and a trillion times worse than Dave. And every time I hear DSD I always get the same problem o perception of depth - it sounds completely flat with no real sense of depth. Now regular 16 bit red book categorically does not suffer from this problem - an infinitely small signal will be perfectly encoded in a properly dithered system - it will just be buried within the noise.
 
Now the second issue is timing. Now I am not talking about timing in terms of femtosecond clocks and other such nonsense - it always amuses me to see NOS DAC companies talking about femtosecond accuracy clocks when their lack of proper filtering generates hundreds of uS of timing problems on transients due to sampling reconstruction errors. What I am talking about is how accurately transients are timed against the original analogue signal in that the timing of transients is non-linear. Sometimes the transient will be at one point in time, other times delayed or advanced depending upon where the transient occurs against the sample time. In the case of PCM we have the timing errors of transients due to the lack of tap length in the FIR reconstruction filter. The mathematics is very clear cut - we need extremely long tap lengths to almost perfectly reconstruct the original timing of transients - and from listening tests I can hear a correlation between tap length and sound quality. With Dave I can still hear 100,000 taps increasing to 164,000 taps albeit I can now start to hear the law of diminishing returns. But we know for sure that increasing the tap length will mean that it would make absolutely no difference if it was sampled at 22 uS or 22 fS (assuming its a perfectly bandwidth limited signal). So red book is again limited on timing by the DAC not inherently within the format.
 
Unfortunately, DSD also has its timing non-linearity issues but they are different to PCM. This problem has never been talked about before, but its something I have been aware of for a long time, and its one reason I uniquely run my noise shapers at 2048FS. When a large signal transient occurs - lets say from -1 to +1 then the time delay for the signal is small as the signal gets through the integrators and OP quantizer almost immediately. But for small signals, it can't get through the quantizer, and so it takes some time for a small negative signal changing to a positive signal to work its way through the integrators. You see these effects on simulation, where the difference of a small transient to a large transient is several uS for DSD64. 
 
Now the timing non linearity of uS is very audible and it affects the ability of the brain to perceive the starting and stopping of instruments. Indeed, the major surprise of Hugo was how well one can perceive that starting and stopping of notes - it was much better than I expected, and at the time I was perplexed where this ability was coming from. With Dave I managed to dig down into the problem, and some of the things I had done (for other reasons) had also improved the timing non-linearity. It turns out that the brain is much more sensitive that the order of 4 uS of timing errors (this number comes from the inter-aural delay resolution, its the accuracy the brain works to in measuring time from sounds hitting one ear against the other), and much smaller levels degrade the ability for the brain to perceive the starting and stopping of notes.
 
But timing accuracy has another important effect too - not only is it crucial to being able to perceive the starting and stopping of notes, its also used to perceive the timbre of an instrument - that is the initial transient is used by the brain to determine the timbre of an instrument and if timing of transients is non-linear, then we get compression in the perception of timbre. One of the surprising things I heard with Hugo was how easy it was to hear the starting and stopping of instruments, and how easy it was to perceive individual instruments timbre and sensation of power. And this made a profound improvement with musicality - I was enjoying music to a level I had never had before.
 
But the problem we have with DSD is that the timing of transients is non-linear with respect to signal level - and unlike PCM you are completely stuck as the error is on the recording and its impossible to remove. So when I hear DSD, it sounds flat in depth, and it has relatively poor ability to perceive the starting and stopping of notes (using Hugo/Dave against PCM). Acoustic guitar sounds quite pleasant, but there is a lack of focus when the string is initially struck - it sounds all unnaturally soft with an inability to properly perceive the starting and stopping. Also the timbre of the instrument is compressed, and its down to the substantial timing non-linearity with signal level.
 
Having emphasised the problems with delta-sigma or noise shaping you may think its better to use R2R DAC's instead. But they too have considerable timing errors too; making the timing of signals code independent is impossible. Also they have considerable low level non linearity problems too as its impossible to match the resistor values - much worse than DSD even - so again we are stuck with poor depth, perception of timing and timbre. Not only that they suffer from substantial noise floor modulation, giving a forced hard aggressive edge to them. Some listeners prefer that, and I won't argue with somebody else's taste - whatever works for you. But its not real and it not the sound I hear with live un-amplified instruments. 
 
So to conclude; yes I agree, DSD is fundamentally flawed, and unlike PCM where the DAC is the fundamental limit, its in the format itself. And it is mostly limited by the format. Additionally, its very easy to underestimate how sensitive the brain is to extremely small errors, and these errors can have a profound effect on musicality.
 
Rob

 
I know this is off-topic, but, based on the quoted posts, I wonder how a good AAA vinyl record, or tape, will compare in terms of musicality, and perception of depth, as although its noise floor is higher, it does not suffer (I suppose) from any kind of timing non-linearity, and doesn't require any kind of filtering, or noise shaping, etc.?
 
Oct 1, 2015 at 9:03 PM Post #342 of 25,973
It's actually quite interesting as on a technical level there are direct parallels with perception of timing and depth when working with analogue components and working with digital. The mechanism for creating the distortion is different, but the distortion itself is the same. Indeed, I learnt a lot about problems with analogue design with working on Dave's noise shaper.
 
I have always been keen on depth perception, as its one aspect that reproduced audio does very poorly. Listen to an organ in a large church, and one can easily perceive a huge sound stage with an organ clearly sounding 200 feet away. A dog barking first thing in the morning on a quite day on the other side of the Welsh valley where I live sounds 2 miles away. But when I listen to audio in my room that perception is squashed dramatically - your lucky if you get a feeling of front to back of a few feet on even the best systems I hear at audio shows.
 
So I have always been interested in depth and wanting to improve this aspect, and the problem is the electronics that go from microphone to speaker and that's why I am so excited about the ADC project because I will be able to cover all of the electronics in the chain from microphone to loudspeaker.
 
When I first started listening to components, I noticed that metal to metal interfaces degraded the perception of depth - and I put this down to the very small non-linearity of contacts due to the layer of oxides and impurities on the surface. So small signals have to break through this, and larger signals have no relative problem - so you get an attenuation of very small signals. Problem with this was that I could perceive minute changes - like each soldered joint - which were by no means measurable. Indeed I have only ever measured this problem once, when I had a digital power amp that had extraordinary low levels of distortion - 0.0001 % at 100W - but one day it was 0.01%, and after a lot of poking around it turned out to be the load switch - the contacts had corroded. Then I found measurable (but small) changes by replacing the crimped wires on the loud with soldered ones. But high current power amps would be expected to show the small changes in distortion due to the change in impedance with signal level due to contacts - but I have never been able to measure the effect of wires (the copper interfaces from crystal to crystal exhibit this behaviour too) or contacts with low current interconnects.
 
Now the noise shaper problem I have been talking about is exactly the same kind of distortion - very small signals won't get through the noise shaper, like very small signals won't get through the oxide barrier of metal to metal interfaces. They produce exactly the same kind of distortion, and sound the same - a truncation in the range of depth perception. But the really cool thing with Dave is that I can measure the problems - I can run simulations where all you are looking at is this distortion and noise, and I can see distortion at -300 dB and then listen to it. What the work I have done with Dave is suggesting is that the brain is extremely sensitive to this problem - in the sense there is no limit to how good small signal integrity needs to be. And this is precisely why we will never be able to measure the problems of copper purity and contacts because the brain can detect levels that no measuring equipment can detect.
 
So analogue has exactly the same problem as digital - in that every component in the signal chain will degrade perception of depth. But the beauty of digital is that it is perfectly possible to eliminate the problem - but Dave is the only digital device that has been able to do this, as nobody else is designing noise shapers with such levels of resolution. And before somebody shouts R2R then these devices are hideous in low level distortion problems - very easy to measure these distortions and it is completely impossible to have the levels of accuracy I get with Dave.
 
And of course analogue has the same problem - and with analogue its impossible to eliminate it. So in my opinion, with Dave I hear depth that is way deeper than any analogue system I have heard - and we are starting to get feedback from listeners to that effect.
 
The exact same problem with timing also occurs with analogue. In this case it is HF distortion - now distortion products at 1 MHz is not directly audible - but they can change the timing of transients in a non-linear way, and that is audible - and that sounds exactly the same as digital timing problems - the inability to perceive the starting and stopping of a note. So again there are direct parallels with digital problems and analogue.
 
Rob
 
Oct 1, 2015 at 9:23 PM Post #343 of 25,973
It's actually quite interesting as on a technical level there are direct parallels with perception of timing and depth when working with analogue components and working with digital. The mechanism for creating the distortion is different, but the distortion itself is the same. Indeed, I learnt a lot about problems with analogue design with working on Dave's noise shaper.

I have always been keen on depth perception, as its one aspect that reproduced audio does very poorly. Listen to an organ in a large church, and one can easily perceive a huge sound stage with an organ clearly sounding 200 feet away. A dog barking first thing in the morning on a quite day on the other side of the Welsh valley where I live sounds 2 miles away. But when I listen to audio in my room that perception is squashed dramatically - your lucky if you get a feeling of front to back of a few feet on even the best systems I hear at audio shows.

So I have always been interested in depth and wanting to improve this aspect, and the problem is the electronics that go from microphone to speaker and that's why I am so excited about the ADC project because I will be able to cover all of the electronics in the chain from microphone to loudspeaker.

When I first started listening to components, I noticed that metal to metal interfaces degraded the perception of depth - and I put this down to the very small non-linearity of contacts due to the layer of oxides and impurities on the surface. So small signals have to break through this, and larger signals have no relative problem - so you get an attenuation of very small signals. Problem with this was that I could perceive minute changes - like each soldered joint - which were by no means measurable. Indeed I have only ever measured this problem once, when I had a digital power amp that had extraordinary low levels of distortion - 0.0001 % at 100W - but one day it was 0.01%, and after a lot of poking around it turned out to be the load switch - the contacts had corroded. Then I found measurable (but small) changes by replacing the crimped wires on the loud with soldered ones. But high current power amps would be expected to show the small changes in distortion due to the change in impedance with signal level due to contacts - but I have never been able to measure the effect of wires (the copper interfaces from crystal to crystal exhibit this behaviour too) or contacts with low current interconnects.

Now the noise shaper problem I have been talking about is exactly the same kind of distortion - very small signals won't get through the noise shaper, like very small signals won't get through the oxide barrier of metal to metal interfaces. They produce exactly the same kind of distortion, and sound the same - a truncation in the range of depth perception. But the really cool thing with Dave is that I can measure the problems - I can run simulations where all you are looking at is this distortion and noise, and I can see distortion at -300 dB and then listen to it. What the work I have done with Dave is suggesting is that the brain is extremely sensitive to this problem - in the sense there is no limit to how good small signal integrity needs to be. And this is precisely why we will never be able to measure the problems of copper purity and contacts because the brain can detect levels that no measuring equipment can detect.

So analogue has exactly the same problem as digital - in that every component in the signal chain will degrade perception of depth. But the beauty of digital is that it is perfectly possible to eliminate the problem - but Dave is the only digital device that has been able to do this, as nobody else is designing noise shapers with such levels of resolution. And before somebody shouts R2R then these devices are hideous in low level distortion problems - very easy to measure these distortions and it is completely impossible to have the levels of accuracy I get with Dave.

And of course analogue has the same problem - and with analogue its impossible to eliminate it. So in my opinion, with Dave I hear depth that is way deeper than any analogue system I have heard - and we are starting to get feedback from listeners to that effect.

The exact same problem with timing also occurs with analogue. In this case it is HF distortion - now distortion products at 1 MHz is not directly audible - but they can change the timing of transients in a non-linear way, and that is audible - and that sounds exactly the same as digital timing problems - the inability to perceive the starting and stopping of a note. So again there are direct parallels with digital problems and analogue.

Rob


Very nice late-night-reading as always Rob :wink:

Can you tell us a little of the clock in the DAVE would be very intresting, and how you feel it stands against the other ultra high end DAC's with space age Cesium clocks (Rubicon) / Crystal Femto galaxy clocks ?

/Fredrik
 
Oct 2, 2015 at 12:44 AM Post #344 of 25,973
Here's a really long and in depth review of Dave in Japanese. Comparing it to the nagra HD. Costing 2x as much in Japan.

http://pansaku.exblog.jp/23717658/
 
Oct 2, 2015 at 12:53 AM Post #345 of 25,973
if the guitar played 300 feet away . can Dave play it 300 feet away ? even though many high end dac let you hear far it away ,but not the real way . the texture of the instruments fading  .
the depth is a tricky thing especially with speakers .
 

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