[goodsound]

ok I was going to be little polite but here you go smartasses -
Your poll is flawed! Yes like it or not its a stupid idea. You have essentially eliminated all voters who would vote "yes" but don't have an ABX test to prove it.

As pointed out several times before in this thread (can you not read), whether someone hears a difference or not depends on the player, amp, headphones, speakers and the source material/recording (song/track) also, and not just the encoder/decoder. you simply cannot ignore that fact!!

So even if someone had an ABX result which proved one way or the other, its not valid. You can't accept the result, whatever it may be, as a global truth.

You could loosen it up a bit by asking instead that if anyone voted "yes" then what was the full reproduction chain ?

As far as I am concerned the lossy format has a flat dimensionless soundstage/image, the sound has much less body than the original, the low-mids sound a little bloated or slow. And this is on an ipod nano with KSC-75.
Would my results be different, for better or worse, if I was listening on a completely different device or amplifier or headphone or on speakers ? You bet!!

 

[craiglester]

Not trying to be difficult or anything, but I have to agree with goodsound here. Like I said too many variables. Plus, like the OP said, you could easily fake an ABX log. And should you be ABX ing more than one time to get the results you like. I'm interested that the OP can 100% discern the difference with V0 on his home system but cannot tell the difference between lossless and V2 oh his portable. Is the output really that bad on the portable?

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnOYiN /img/forum/go_quote.gif The present is v2 as far as I can remember. That should do well enough. I am using v2 on my portable and I can't hear the difference between that and lossless. When installing EAC there will be a question whether you want to use the recommended settings provided by Hydrogen. I suggest you do. V2 is the best setting for VBR mp3s as far as quality/ size is concerned. If you want something better you will have to use FLAC imo.

and hey, I use mp3's a lot, so i'm not anti mp3 or anything. I just like the peace of mind that comes with lossless. I know it's the best my system can be fed. I like that.

 

[meat01]

Quote:

ok I was going to be little polite but here you go smartasses - Your poll is flawed! Yes like it or not its a stupid idea. You have essentially eliminated all voters who would vote "yes" but don't have an ABX test to prove it. As pointed out several times before in this thread (can you not read), whether someone hears a difference or not depends on the player, amp, headphones, speakers and the source material/recording (song/track) also, and not just the encoder/decoder. you simply cannot ignore that fact!! So even if someone had an ABX result which proved one way or the other, its not valid. You can't accept the result, whatever it may be, as a global truth. You could loosen it up a bit by asking instead that if anyone voted "yes" then what was the full reproduction chain ? As far as I am concerned the lossy format has a flat dimensionless soundstage/image, the sound has much less body than the original, the low-mids sound a little bloated or slow. And this is on an ipod nano with KSC-75. Would my results be different, for better or worse, if I was listening on a completely different device or amplifier or headphone or on speakers ? You bet!!

So I guess your vote would be a no.

The question was,

Can you hear the difference between LAME V0 and Lossless? If so, post your ABX results.

The question was not make an excuse why the test is flawed. He didn't ask to name your headphones, player, cables or speakers. He simply asked you if you can tell the difference, then post the ABX. If you can't then vote no.

If you can tell the difference with certain headphones, but not others, then say yes and post your ABX. If you can tell on your computer, but not your ipod, then vote yes and post your ABX.

 

[goodsound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat01 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The question was, Can you hear the difference between LAME V0 and Lossless? If so, post your ABX results.

That's just part of the question. You are conveniently ignoring the "..and if you don't have an ABX then either don't vote, or that's the equivalent of no". That does not make any sense at all, in a "poll". Thats the part I have a problem with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat01 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So I guess your vote would be a no.

again, you are conveniently ignoring the "yes" part of my message.

alright, you guys can knock this out...I am outta here...

 

[K2Grey]

Err, it does not matter how many variables there are if none of them change other than the encoder/decoder. You know, there's only 1 experimental variable.

 

[lordgibbness]

some people really doesn't know what a scientific test is do they?

Let me explain: you have equipment X and encoders A and B. If X remains constant then your are only evaluating A against B.

Hence the test is fair.

The part that you are misunderstanding is that this is a NOT a test of one person's hearing against another (if that was the case then everyone would have to use the same listening equipment), but is a test of one encoder against another.

It is very simple - if you can hear the difference then post the results!!

 

[EnOYiN]

Errrr.

Right. I think someone should just close this thread. It was supposed to be just a fun poll to find out how many people can hear the difference. It will never be scientific because I can't check whether you actually took the test or just made a neat text file. Since a lot of people did not post an ABX result ( genuine or not) this poll doesn't really work anymore. It doesn't matter which one is better. There are a lot more things to think about when picking 1 or the other. (battery life on a portable for instance)

As far as my portable goes. I listen to a px200 straight from the output of a Creative Zen Micro. I don't think I will need something better because when I am using it most likely I am cycling or sitting in a train or bus. I don't want to look like a fool so I am not going to wear something like K1000. I doubt anyone can hear the difference between lossless and v0 when using a px200. Because it saves battery life using v2 as well I don't think I will change that.

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodsound /img/forum/go_quote.gif You have essentially eliminated all voters who would vote "yes" but don't have an ABX test to prove it.

That is exactly the point.

Quote:

ok I was going to be little polite but here you go smartasses - Your poll is flawed! Yes like it or not its a stupid idea.

Quote:

As pointed out several times before in this thread (can you not read),

Could we keep the invective and ad hominem out of this thread please?

Quote:

So even if someone had an ABX result which proved one way or the other, its not valid. You can't accept the result, whatever it may be, as a global truth.

An ABX test can only prove that you can hear a difference in that ABX test. It cannot prove that you cannot hear a difference.

 

[craiglester]

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2Grey /img/forum/go_quote.gif Err, it does not matter how many variables there are if none of them change other than the encoder/decoder. You know, there's only 1 experimental variable.

if you test something that has 4 variables, you need have 3 of them fixed to allow accurate testing on the 4th. EG, if we're all using an x-fi platinum, with a gilmore lite and the same flac /mp3 file then all is good. BUT if you're wearing Senn 650's and I'm wearing K340's then it'll sound different. So, instantly you've added an extra variable that messes with the figures. now, that's assuming we're all using the same test file, same player, same dac/soundcard and same amp. which is hardly likely. So, there's NO way you're going to get any kind of accurate results.

and again I say redoing abx tests until it meets your desired results makes it kind of invalid too.

I can tell the difference, on some files, most of the time, about 8 or 9 times out of 10 i'd say. but without an abx that's a no? especially as th OP admits he got a 9/10 but did it again until he got 10/10, so your true score is a 9 then?

and if the test isn't about our hearing, then why is it called "can you tell the difference..."..

Perhaps posting a test sample would help next time, and asking for prople to list their equipment too.. then we could perhaps see why people say no, like if they're using a poor source or headphones.

but please, enough of the bitching and moaning at each other about this. there's no need for personal attacks, let's just move on an enjoy our music. I come here to find out how make my system sound better, so i can enjoy my music more.

It's friday.. have a good weekend all.

 

[EnOYiN]

Can someone please close this thread. I don't see anything good coming out of it. Thanks in advance.

 

[pheonix991]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif Where are your ABX results?

Don't have any. A friend and I did some a/b-ing with their songs and I picked which was lossless correctly.

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pheonix991 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Don't have any. A friend and I did some a/b-ing with their songs and I picked which was lossless correctly.

I see from your signature that you already have Foobar set up. You should try the ABX test. Foobar makes it very easy to do, and it eliminates many variables like volume differences and expectancy effects.

 

[pheonix991]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif I see from your signature that you already have Foobar set up. You should try the ABX test. Foobar makes it very easy to do, and it eliminates many variables like volume differences and expectancy effects.

Can't right now. Hdd is busted, so spare, and no money for a new one.

 

[ferraro25]

Nope. At least not with the file I tried. Using "home" setup in my sig, K701.

edited out mildly-inflammatory comment (in support of skepticism)

 

[Redo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordgibbness /img/forum/go_quote.gif To: aphex944, Asmo, Barry, Benco, blinx, GameBlaster, goodsound, Karlosak, Maleficio, pheonix991, PsychoZX, Redo, TestSpecimen, Vuti and Whitebread How can you read the first post and then vote YES without showing ABX results? Can you not read?

Because:

Posting ABX results aren't conclusive, they are easily faked (either editing the text document, finding a song that exhibits notable artifacting, or boosting the treble) . I know my ears, and I also know the first time through the segment is the easiest to spot the differences. After listening to it over and over and over, it all starts to sound the same for me.


Not to say it's easy to hear the difference. Another big factor is my headphone setup is no longer on the PC, and I can't even ABX it without transporting and rewiring a spaggettifull of cables twice (once to the PC, once back to my room)