[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif How many of you wear glasses? When you get a new prescription and/or a new pair of glasses, do you notice that things are "off" for the first few days? After that, you adjust and everything starts to look normal. So, did your glasses "burn in" or did your brain rewire itself to conform what the eyes are reporting to what it expects to see? No doubt the same thing happens in audio. Your brain reworks signals to conform to what it expects. If you're expecting a "change" from a magickal cable or "burn in," then you will probably get one whether or not it happens in the real world. That's the only reasonable explanation for why believers "hear" something, skeptics don't, the failure to hear differences in any blinded test, and the inability for test tools to measure a difference. It also allows for the sincerity of the believers - I think they genuinely hear a difference. But only people who believe get to hear it and only when they know what they're listening to.

You make it look like a fact – but it isn't, as plausible as the theory sounds. In a now closed HD-800 thread ServinginEcuador reported how different his new pair sounds in comparison to the older one – quite exactly like mine out of the box. He's about to break it in and will report the progress.
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[whaleyboy]

If this is a digression please forgive me but I can offer another first hand experience.

I have a pair of AT W1000s that I have used extensively for about a year. I am very familiar with their (presumably burned in) sound. They are a fairly safe reference point.

When I purchased my pair of AD2000s I was able to switch back and forth (same amp, same source, same power etc.) and I could hear significant differences between the two cans. Over time (and with use) the differences have changed. In other words, when the 2000s were new and I switched between the cans there was a large, radical difference. They sounded congested or very mid-rangey. Now, after several months of regular use, the differences are much smaller.

I guess that my brain could have settled into the AD2000 sound but I switch cans fairly often (or did at one point) and so the large difference that I observed (or believe that I observed) should still be evident now that the AD2000s are broken in.

I don't personally believe in break in for anything other than speakers with mechanical components but I have sympathy for the opinion that components change - even cables

 

[niemion]

Interesting theory. A lot of things can happen in 200 hours.

When looking at a painting for 200 hours I see things I didn't immediately notice. Did the painting change?

Quote:

If you're expecting a "change" from a magickal cable or "burn in," then you will probably get one whether or not it happens in the real world. That's the only reasonable explanation for why believers "hear" something, skeptics don't, the failure to hear differences in any blinded test, and the inability for test tools to measure a difference. It also allows for the sincerity of the believers - I think they genuinely hear a difference. But only people who believe get to hear it and only when they know what they're listening to.

Bind tests? I've heard a lot of people talking about doing blind tests but so far I haven't read about any performed.

Links?

 

[Audio-Fi]

Burn-in and getting used to sound tend to cross each other. When a pair of headphones comes out of the factory the diaphragm is very tight with very minimal electric current going through it by testing purposes. So when a consumer buys it, it would not sound the same as it would after a week or so of usage. It's like a brand new shoes that is very stiff when new but after a few days it starts to become comfortable due to the formed creases.

Now there is also the brain getting used to the sound. The more you listen to the same equipment at a long time, the more your brain perceives it as "the original" sound so when you transfer over to a newer equipment it will sound very different and your brain will think it's wrong. After a long usage, your brain will become accustomed to that sound signature.

I owned a lot of headphones and I am a sound engineer so I know how things work. I can use MDR-R10 for a week and be disgusted by the sound of my MDR-EX700. But when I travel around, I get accustomed by the sound of MDR-EX700 and it wouldn't be as bad as I remember.

A lot of people are over exaggerating the differences between burn in versus placebo.

 

[penguin121]

I generally agree with the OP that burn-in has more to do with the listener adjusting to the sound of the equipment than any physical changes in the equipment. For headphones and speakers there are certainly plausible theories as to how physical changes in the drivers during burn-in may occur to produce an audible difference, so let us ignore these for the moment. Burn-in is also often discussed in reference to DACs, amps, and even cables. If burn-in for these items is more than just our perception of the sound changing, what exactly is it that changes in these items during burn-in to produce these differences?

 

[b0dhi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif You make it look like a fact – but it isn't, as plausible as the theory sounds. In a now closed HD-800 thread ServinginEcuador reported how different his new pair sounds in comparison to the older one – quite exactly like mine out of the box. He's about to break it in and will report the progress. .

Comparing 2 different sets of headphones to check for burn-in is invalid, since the two do not necessarily sound exactly the same due to manufacture variations (yes, this even applies to the HD800).

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Comparing 2 different sets of headphones to check for burn-in is invalid, since the two do not necessarily sound exactly the same due to manufacture variations (yes, this even applies to the HD800).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif He's about to break it in and will report the progress.

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[dura]

Talking about the brain; why do we display the strong tendency to declare one of the explanations as right and the other as wrong?

 

[Oedipus Rex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dura /img/forum/go_quote.gif Talking about the brain; why do we display the strong tendency to declare one of the explanations as right and the other as wrong?

Well, people usually angrily defend "truths" that they subconsciously doubt themselves.. this is very apparent in many religious movements.

And if you doubt the canonical truth about burn-in, if you are willing to admit that maybe burn-in is about you and not the gear, then you automatically start to wonder that maybe this is the case with some other things as well.. maybe that exotic powercord does not affect the sound after all.. I mean, many people have told me that to really get to appreciate a new cable you must listen to it atleast for few days.. and then you might, again subconsciously, start to wonder that which is more likely: the fact that you change subtly during those 2 days or the cable, being a copper wire, changes it's conductive properties.. but this will not do, dangerous thoughts, frightful follies! Burn-in is real! skeptics are just unsophisticated "engineer-types" who could not possibly appreciate the finer details of my Odin power cable. All together now, let us express our collective dismay on thisheretical foolishness so I can sleep well tonight without that naggin doubt that I just might have been swindled..

 

[Speederlander]

Can anyone who believes in cable "burn-in" please explain what properties of the cable are changing that would cause alteration of the audible signal? Indeed, what physical properties change so much over a period of just a few days or weeks (or whatever period it may be) to cause this discernible difference in audio quality?

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus Rex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, people usually angrily defend "truths" that they subconsciously doubt themselves.. this is very apparent in many religious movements. And if you doubt the canonical truth about burn-in, if you are willing to admit that maybe burn-in is about you and not the gear, then you automatically start to wonder that maybe this is the case with some other things as well.. maybe that exotic powercord does not affect the sound after all.. I mean, many people have told me that to really get to appreciate a new cable you must listen to it atleast for few days.. and then you might, again subconsciously, start to wonder that which is more likely: the fact that you change subtly during those 2 days or the cable, being a copper wire, changes it's conductive properties.. but this will not do, dangerous thoughts, frightful follies! Burn-in is real! skeptics are just unsophisticated "engineer-types" who could not possibly appreciate the finer details of my Odin power cable. All together now, let us express our collective dismay on thisheretical foolishness so I can sleep well tonight without that naggin doubt that I just might have been swindled..

You're giving a good example of partial blindness and pseudo-objectivity. Why does just one side suffer from preconceptions in your view?


Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...manufacture variations (yes, this even applies to the HD800).

The HD 800 is one of the headphones with the most strict end controls. Particularly when it comes to frequency response. Each pair is tested in this respect, and the test protocol can be ordered from the Sennheiser website. Many owners have posted theirs in a Head-Fi thread. Obviously the variations are very minor – small enough to make the described difference in sound quality implausible – unless it's due to break-in effects.

But let's wait and see!

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[b0dhi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif The HD 800 is one of the headphones with the most strict end controls. Particularly when it comes to frequency response. Each pair is tested in this respect, and the test protocol can be ordered from the Sennheiser website. Many owners have posted theirs in a Head-Fi thread. Obviously the variations are very minor – small enough to make the described difference in sound quality implausible – unless it's due to break-in effects. But let's wait and see! .

Senn's tolerance is specified to -3dB. That's well audible, and hardly implausible as an explanation if people are comparing different units to check for break-in.

Also, the frequency response graphs from Senn are averaged into a small (dozen?) number of bands. They aren't a good way of judging the true response of individual units as details within each of those bands is hidden. All we can tell is the overall amplitude in each frequency band. Further, as far as I know Senn hasn't been explicit about whether the FR tolerance is to the graphs they send out with the averaged bands, or to the true unbanded frequency response. If it's the latter, the tolerance in reality is worse than -3dB.

Unless someone is measuring before and after responses of the same unit, I'm going to assume break-in effects are fairly subtle as with every other headphone, and that break-in effects are overstated as they often are

 

[AtomikPi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif The HD 800 is one of the headphones with the most strict end controls. Particularly when it comes to frequency response. Each pair is tested in this respect, and the test protocol can be ordered from the Sennheiser website. Many owners have posted theirs in a Head-Fi thread. Obviously the variations are very minor – small enough to make the described difference in sound quality implausible – unless it's due to break-in effects. .

But also, since the FR graphs are done with little/no burn-in, then Sennheiser must expect that the FR does not change over time. That does not necessarily mean that other characteristics of the transducers do not change, but the most important characteristic does not. This also means that claims of burn-in with regard to FR (such as the highs becoming less harsh or sibilant or the bass becoming more pronounced) are likely untrue.

I will also say that when I heard the HD800's at CanJam - virtually zero burn-in I was not impressed except by their soundstage and comfort. However, hearing them a few months later I was pretty blown away. This may have been my brain, the equipment, or the actually transducers, but I think brain burn in is responsible for most "burn-in" reported, especially for equipment which does not have a scientific explanation for why it burns in (anything other than transducers essentially).

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Senn's tolerance is specified to -3dB. That's well audible, and hardly implausible as an explanation if people are comparing different units to check for break-in.

I may be wrong, but the only tolerance I recall is the deviation within 20-20,000 Hz with one and the same unit.


Quote:

Also, the frequency response graphs from Senn are averaged into a small (dozen?) number of bands. They aren't a good way of judging the true response of individual units as details within each of those bands is hidden. All we can tell is the overall amplitude in each frequency band. Further, as far as I know Senn hasn't been explicit about whether the FR tolerance is to the graphs they send out with the averaged bands, or to the true unbanded frequency response. If it's the latter, the tolerance in reality is worse than -3dB.

The tolerances among the posted individual graphs I have seen so far are within ±1.5 dB or the like. Certainly audible in direct comparison, but not necessarily responsible for a sound-quality gap.


Quote:

Unless someone is measuring before and after responses of the same unit, I'm going to assume break-in effects are fairly subtle as with every other headphone, and that break-in effects are overstated as they often are

I would only rely on listening conparisons. The existing measuring variations (due to differing placement) make it impossible to draw conclusions.



Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomikPi /img/forum/go_quote.gif But also, since the FR graphs are done with little/no burn-in, then Sennheiser must expect that the FR does not change over time. That does not necessarily mean that other characteristics of the transducers do not change, but the most important characteristic does not. This also means that claims of burn-in with regard to FR (such as the highs becoming less harsh or sibilant or the bass becoming more pronounced) are likely untrue.

You're right about frequency response. I recall a HeadRoom measurement investigating break-in effects, and FR deviations were insignificant. Personally I believe it's in the harmonic distortion.


Quote:

I will also say that when I heard the HD800's at CanJam - virtually zero burn-in I was not impressed except by their soundstage and comfort. However, hearing them a few months later I was pretty blown away. This may have been my brain, the equipment, or the actually transducers, but I think brain burn in is responsible for most "burn-in" reported, especially for equipment which does not have a scientific explanation for why it burns in (anything other than transducers essentially).

The equipment plays a major part, as well as personal expectations and moods. I still believe in mechanical break-in. So let's wait for the further development of ServinginEquador's experiment!
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[Oedipus Rex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomikPi /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will also say that when I heard the HD800's at CanJam - virtually zero burn-in I was not impressed except by their soundstage and comfort. However, hearing them a few months later I was pretty blown away. This may have been my brain, the equipment, or the actually transducers, but I think brain burn in is responsible for most "burn-in" reported, especially for equipment which does not have a scientific explanation for why it burns in (anything other than transducers essentially).

Well, there is a subtle difference again with brain burn in and placebo.. I don't think you can burn in your brain to appreciate the new cryogenically tempered usb-cable as there is, atleast far as I know, nothing for your brain to learn: the new usb cable sounds exactly the same as the old one. So in this case the changes are placebo and not the kind of brain burn in I was talking in the original post.