[tinyman392]

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You;re just cracking me up. The ety er4s is just the epytomy of analytical sound. I don't know how all those spikes in the mids and the highs got in your brain and what made you think that an iem has to have peaks in the mids and the highs to be analytical. Frankly, if the b2 is midcentric then my Vsonic GR02 Bass is analytical - its mids are laid back, the highs are extended and somewhat agressive, the treble extension is really good - it has to be analytical.

 
I found more of a V in it rather than analytical.  It's signature was similar to the W4 with a little more treble energy (which leads to some sibilance).  I would never call the W4 analytical, balanced, yes.  Analytical, no.  Neither are in my eyes as I still classify both of these as balanced.  
 
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emmmmm agreed er4s are basically the bassline for what i would consider analytical.   But i just dont find the B2's even close in this regard to my pfe let alone the ER4S sure the B2 are revealing but not to the extent i thought they would be (IMO), i just find the sound out them weird.  Its something about the low mids to bass region that just doesn't sound right to me cant quite put my finger on it though.  (Now im not calling them junk or anything, just not to my taste).

 
I haven't heard the ER4, so I can't comment on that.  All Etymotics I've owned I consider analytical by far (EtyKids and HF2).  I agree with you on your thoughts about the B2 being classified as analytical as the midrange doesn't have the classic analytical sound to them.  
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EDIT:
 
In all honesty, I think it really depends on where you draw the line between analytical and balanced here.  Also the way a person defines it on their own and interprets the definition will make the difference.  Remember, a definition isn't set in stone, most still require some interpretation. The line isn't solid and black; on the contrary, it's grey and fuzzy.  

 

[kova4a]

Well, I know different people percieve sound in a different way but if anything the mids of b2 are a little bit more forward than er4s, so even if you press a gun against my head I can't call that V-shaped. The mids are just perfect IMO and in balance with the rest of the sound. Also, I don't see how someone can consider the etykids and hf2 analytical but not the b2 when the er-4s is cleaner and more analytical than any of the etymotic iems and the difference between er4s and b2 are the b2's sligthly more forward mids and the er'4s hotter treble. Frankly, the b2 and the at's ck10 are the closest iems to er-4s that I've heard and the statement of stozzer that the b2 isn't even close to the er-4s is just absurd. I still think the er-4s is superior as I like hotter treble and its revealing highs that make sub-par recordings sibilant. IMO the treble of b2 is pretty smooth compared to er-4s and while I can see how someone may call it agressive I don't  find it sibilant at all and the b2 is way more forgiving than the er4s and even than ck10.

 

[tinyman392]

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Well, I know different people percieve sound in a different way but if anything the mids of b2 are a little bit more forward than er4s, so even if you press a gun against my head I can't call that V-shaped. The mids are just perfect IMO and in balance with the rest of the sound. Also, I don't see how someone can consider the etykids and hf2 analytical but not the b2 when the er-4s is cleaner and more analytical than any of the etymotic iems and the difference between er4s and b2 are the b2's sligthly more forward mids and the er'4s hotter treble. Frankly, the b2 and the at's ck10 are the closest iems to er-4s that I've heard and the statement of stozzer that the b2 isn't even close to the er-4s is just absurd. I still think the er-4s is superior as I like hotter treble and its revealing highs that make sub-par recordings sibilant. IMO the treble of b2 is pretty smooth compared to er-4s and while I can see how someone may call it agressive I don't  find it sibilant at all and the b2 is way more forgiving than the er4s and even than ck10.

 
Different fit.  Different ears can cause this.  Although I haven't changed tips, many have.  You might not hear a V in it, but some do (the slightest).  I don't call these mid-forward, just like I wouldn't call the W4s  mid-forward.  They aren't analytical to my ears though.  

 

[kova4a]

Well, I agree about different ears but I've tried all tips possible with the b2 and even with the ety black foamies that reduce the brightness the most, the b2 is too clean and cold to be called anything but analytical. Frankly, the ety er-4p is warmer than the b2 and I'm still waiting for you to give me an example of an analytical iem according for you. You may ask joker, you  may ask clieos or someone else but everyone will tell you that b2 is analytical. IMO for something to be V-shaped the mids have to be laid back and the mids of b2 are anything but laid back and don't get me started on the bass response.

 

[tinyman392]

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Well, I agree about different ears but I've tried all tips possible with the b2 and even with the ety black foamies that reduce the brightness the most, the b2 is too clean and cold to be called anything but analytical. Frankly, the ety er-4p is warmer than the b2 and I'm still waiting for you to give me an example of an analytical iem according for you. You may ask joker, you  may ask clieos or someone else but everyone will tell you that b2 is analytical. IMO for something to be V-shaped the mids have to be laid back and the mids of b2 are anything but laid back and don't get me started on the bass response.

 
I named two...  My analytical definition generally goes with a bump in the higher mids and highs as a whole.  The higher mids in the B2 aren't there (not bumped).  I'll name three analytical 'phones right now though (two that I previously named): Etymotic EtyKids, Etymotic HF2, ACS T15.  The B2s don't have that needed bump in order for me to call them analytical as it actually has a V in the area these 3 IEMs bump.  The strong bass has more quantity than the ACS T15 (warmest of all of these), but is less warm (warm really depends on decay speed for me, not FR quantity).  At max peak though, the B2s are slightly ahead of the T15 (mid-bass) while the T15 (and HF2) decay slightly slower in the sub-bass region (HF2 in the mid-bass region).
 
The Aurisonics ASG-1 (1.0/1.1 revisions) had more of an analytical midrange in comparison to the B2, but didn't have the highs for me to call them analytical, so they go with the term sweet.  
 
EDIT:
 
The RE0, although most call it analytical, I don't see that way (note that I used Sony hybrid tips on them that toned down the highs and boosted lows).  With those tips, I didn't think it was analytical.  With other tips, they would be.  Please note that the RE0 impressions are from about a year ago as mine have died

 

[Inks]

I was going with Tinys definition of analytical, which was mentioned to have a midhigh spike. The ER4S doesn't have a spike in the treble, it's pretty flat, biggest bump is at 2-3k but it's small. A spike only occurs in the ER4S if it's not fitted properly.
If analytical means flat then it's analytical with that definition. ER6s have a tiny bit less treble and more bass.

I do think Tinyman is right that the B2 is v-shaped but the extent is so small in the bass that it can be classified as another type.

 

[tinyman392]

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I was going with Tinys definition of analytical, which was mentioned to have a midhigh spike. The ER4S doesn't have a spike in the treble, it's pretty flat, biggest bump is at 2-3k but it's small. A spike only occurs in the ER4S if it's not fitted properly.
If analytical means flat then it's analytical with that definition. ER6s have a tiny bit less treble and more bass.
I do think Tinyman is right that the B2 is v-shaped but the extent is so small in the bass that it can be classified as another type.

 
I agree 100% with this.  I didn't specifically classify these as v-shaped (I just said there is a slight V in them).  I'm sorry if it made it seem like I did.  My classification would be balanced (balanced flat vs V).  I find that the B2 and the Westone 4 have a lot similar in the midrange (including the dip in the higher mids).  I would rate them in the same area as balanced.  
 
There are two things that really draw the grey line here for the B2.  The definition of analytical, and the interpretation of the definition (strict vs loose).  I can 100% see why people would call these analytical.  I just don't.  
 
Please don't take my comments the wrong way.  I'm just giving the B2s a view in a different light.  

 

[stozzer123]

Good points very well made tiny and inks.  Agreed that its down to interpretation of what 'analytical is'  to me it lies between how well they reveal detail along with a balanced sound commonly found in a BA.
 
Each to their own, we will all hear things differently, I made my feelings on the B2's know a few pages back but definitely wont deride anyone for opposing my views, for me its just a reason to keep bleeding my wallet in the search for something else.

 

[stozzer123]

double

 

[tinyman392]

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Good points very well made tiny and inks.  Agreed that its down to interpretation of what 'analytical is'  to me it lies between how well they reveal detail along with a balanced sound commonly found in a BA.
 
Each to their own, we will all hear things differently, I made my feelings on the B2's know a few pages back but definitely wont deride anyone for opposing my views, for me its just a reason to keep bleeding my wallet in the search for something else.

 
That is a very valid definition of analytical (even if it isn't my own), and I can see where it cam from.  It does depend on the definition, as things like this always end up that way.  Defining and interpretation is what creates all the arguments anywhere you go XD
 
And keep bleeding the wallets we will...  Forever...  And ever...  And ever...  Until the companies go out of business (that's nowhere in sight ).

 

[kova4a]

Well, as I said, it's all about personal perception. I wouldn't call something analytical just because it has peaks in the higher mids or the lower highs - that's what makes an iem hot or harsh, not analytical. For me analytical is anything that is relatively flat, cold sounding and revealing and lacks thinkness to the notes to be just balanced and sweet. Also as I mentioned, I always try all available tips possible with a given iem and even though there are tips that can reduse the highs and boost the lows of re-0, b2, er-4s and generally all iems, the former are just too clean and cold even with foam tips and a warmer amp for me to call them something else besides analytical (and that does not mean that they are not balanced at the same time). Anyway, let's just enjoy the music and not make a fuss about small things like definitions and stuff.
I totally, agree about the bleeding of the wallets though I'm not in a rush right now  - maybe something like the new cardas iem will get me excited again.

 

[stozzer123]

what is this cardas you talk of?  is that the ozzy company?.........*sound of bank notes rustling*

 

[LizardKing1]

So basically the big definition for what is analytical consists of a treble spike? So if I take a CX-300 or a Monster Turbine, equalize it to be overall flat and have a 6dB peak in the mid-highs, you'll call it analytical? That just doesn't work. You're taking a quality that depends on more factors and oversimplifying it. The HD800 (EDIT: never listened to it, just quoting) is seen as a very analytical full-sized headphone and it has a flat FR.

 

[kova4a]

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what is this cardas you talk of?  is that the ozzy company?.........*sound of bank notes rustling*

I was talking about the George Cardas' so called ear speakers that have been in development for quite some time now http://www.blackbirdaudio.com/Blackbird_Audio_Gallery/Cardas_Earspeakers_and_Headphone_accessories/Pages/Cardas_Ear_Speakers.html

 

[tinyman392]

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So basically the big definition for what is analytical consists of a treble spike? So if I take a CX-300 or a Monster Tribute, equalize it to be overall flat and have a 6dB peak in the mid-highs, you'll call it analytical? That just doesn't work. You're taking a quality that depends on more factors and oversimplifying it. The HD800 is seen as a very analytical full-sized headphone and it has a flat FR.

 
You're off by a long shot.  The reason that resonance spike is needed (in my mind) is that it allows reproduction of certain vocal details (dynamics, power, and literal details) that would be lost without it.  As I stated earlier, analytical entails the focus of the higher mids and highs as a whole.  This combination normally results in an aggressive sound that can be drier and colder (but doesn't have to be) and detail retrieval that is among the best where it seems that it's "thrown at you".  The resonance spike also helps out this aggression in the sound as well.  
 
You made many assumptions about my definition of analytical in an ignorant manner.  Don't ever assume anything.  "It makes and ass out of u and me."  (If you don't know, this is one of my favorite quotes XD).  Just about every assumption you made past the spike was incorrect.  
 
As for oversimplifying it, I wasn't.  I was asked why I didn't think the B2 was analytical.  The answer was that part (keyword here is part, not all) of my analytical definition involves a small (to large) high-midrange spike (Etymotic does it either at the 1.5, 2, or 2.7 kHz range while other companies will do it around the 3 kHz and others in a different place).  I was asked why I didn't see it as analytic, so I gave the area of the entire definition it broke.  
 
If you do a peak like that in the mid-highs, I categorize that as sweet, not analytical.  That spike creates good detail retrieval for the mids though, but doesn't promise aggressive highs or even a brighter (midrange) sound.  There is a lot wrong with your assumptions.  Please don't make them.  
 
Please note that I do differentiate my categories between: sweet, analytical, balanced* (not V, but can be) and neutral (balanced to a stricter perceived flatness restriction).  The B2s would be in the balanced categories, the neutral would include the RE0, the Etymotics would be placed into the analytical (can fit into the sweet as well).  Analytical, in my mind has the aspects of a balanced sound with sweetness.  The result is a great detail retrieval that can be aggressive at times (but again, doesn't have to be).  Please note that I also split balanced into two different categories, one that boosts sub-bass but a couple dB and one that doesn't (flat).  
 
BTW, what you described with putting a peak in the high-mids is the PFE 1xx with grey filters.  They are actually regarded as analytical by many on this forum...  In a way, I agree with this assessment, but in others I don't.  I would call them sweet, even warm and sweet though (midrange has a bit of warmth to it).