[o0genesis0o]

Hello Head-Fi!

Not long ago we asked the headphone communities to share their questions about Sennheiser as it pertains to audiophile headphones: our philosophies, tuning, R&D, manufacturing, and more.

We immediately began producing and filming a new long-form content series to answer some of these questions, titled "Beyond the Curve", and it's here! What we think you'll enjoy about "BTC" is the unscripted access to some of the brilliant minds behind both the products and the philosophies that shape them.

We're happy to announce that Episode 1 is live (tuning!), and we're posting it (and subsequent episodes) here in this thread (of course, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel and get notified of future posts if you choose).

*spoiler* Want to see an original Orpheus cameo? Check out EP01 now Enjoy!

​

Terrific video. There are some eye-opening points for an audio geek like myself.

Side effect of this video is that I suddenly want an IE900. HD800S-on-the-go is a good pitch.

 

[Beagle]

Excellent excellent video. Thank you Sennheiser folks for answer community questions and educating the masses.

After buying and selling many headphones for 20+ years, I really appreciate the Sennheiser philosophy of putting out good products that have a high shelf life.
with that said, that hd900, or whatever it be called, sure likes to make the fans wait .

Sennheiser has never made a “bad” headphone. Even the HD700. Very unjustly maligned IMO.

All their headphones in the $50-$500 price ranges have always been great value for money. And consistent.

That’s perhaps the one word I can solidly ascribe to Sennheiser. Consistent. I’ve owned countless Senns and I’ve never had a problem with two of the same model sounding different. And always near perfect driver matching. And having recently purchased the 660s2, nothing has changed

I still have the entire 5- - and 6- - range (but sadly never had the 580 Jubilee) because they will always sound wonderful and deliver music as music, not excess detail or feigned excitement.

I’d like to see Sennheiser design a new headphone using the shape of the 6- - model, but a bit larger, and using the 800 driver. And retail for around $950

 

[dsrk]

Sennheiser has never made a “bad” headphone. Even the HD700. Very unjustly maligned IMO.

All their headphones in the $50-$500 price ranges have always been great value for money. And consistent.

That’s perhaps the one word I can solidly ascribe to Sennheiser. Consistent. I’ve owned countless Senns and I’ve never had a problem with two of the same model sounding different. And always near perfect driver matching. And having recently purchased the 660s2, nothing has changed

I still have the entire 5- - and 6- - range (but sadly never had the 580 Jubilee) because they will always sound wonderful and deliver music as music, not excess detail or feigned excitement.

I’d like to see Sennheiser design a new headphone using the shape of the 6- - model, but a bit larger, and using the 800 driver. And retail for around $950

That would be like HD750. We all want it, don't we?

 

[ericpalonen]

Sennheiser has never made a “bad” headphone. Even the HD700. Very unjustly maligned IMO.

All their headphones in the $50-$500 price ranges have always been great value for money. And consistent.

That’s perhaps the one word I can solidly ascribe to Sennheiser. Consistent. I’ve owned countless Senns and I’ve never had a problem with two of the same model sounding different. And always near perfect driver matching. And having recently purchased the 660s2, nothing has changed

I still have the entire 5- - and 6- - range (but sadly never had the 580 Jubilee) because they will always sound wonderful and deliver music as music, not excess detail or feigned excitement.

I’d like to see Sennheiser design a new headphone using the shape of the 6- - model, but a bit larger, and using the 800 driver. And retail for around $950

Thank you for keeping us in your rotation! The Jubilee is terrific ... maybe one day a pristine set will show up FS to round out the collection. Any "deserted island" Senny's from what you've owned so far?

 

[Beagle]

Any "deserted island" Senny's from what you've owned so far?

If I was only allowed to keep one headphone, it would probably be the HD580 or HD600. HD480 and HD590 are special as well.

 

[The Schraeer]

Hi, thanks for your confidence in our team. I believe we'll address this topic in a later episode, but I'm happy to give some background why it's unfortunately not so trivial for us:
1. Burden of scale: Sennheiser/sonova consumer hearing is many times larger than practically all our competitors in the audiophile space. This also has the disadvantage that our requirements towards manufacturing are very different. Any product or transducer development needs to be set up in a way that makes it scalable and has a high yield that satisfies the expectation of modern manufacturing experts. Most of our efforts in development usually go into improving manufacturing consistency & yield. This structure is simply not a good fit for headphones that only sells a few thousand times a year.
2. Logistics: During the separation of Sennheiser Pro and Consumer, Pro Sennheiser (obviously) kept the manufacturing lines for condenser microphone capsules, where our electrostatic transducers are also assembled. That means that at the moment we don't have manufacturing capacities for electrostatic transducers available. This includes for instance sputtering devices to coat the diaphragm accurately and a clean room for assembly. From a business perspective, building up an entire manufacturing line for a low quantity product line has a very hard time competing with business cases with less up-front capital expenditure. I know that doesn't sound like a sexy reason, but jobs and peoples livelihoods depend on our growth trajectory, so I take it seriously.
3. Perfect is the enemy of better: My personal ambition for a new Sennheiser electrostatic headphone would be to revive the performance of the old HE 90, which to me are the best headphones ever developed. The cost of the glass stators in the old orpheus have increased significantly from 30 years ago. The cost factor between cheap metal stators and the original ones is over 100, and the headphone cost alone would be in the price region of the HE 1, which obviously defeats the purpose. I wish we find an alternative that offers equal stiffness and acoustic transparency, but it doesn't look like it at the moment.

I can assure you that practically every experienced acoustics engineer at the company wishes dearly for that product to come to life. I can't promise you anything, except that we'll do our best to make it happen somehow.

Hello and thank you for the response.
It is greatly appreciated. Not just by me, but it would appear by a lot of community members who care.
I am surprised about detailed insight you have provided to the problem. Your transparency to the process is is greatly welcome and alleviates quite a lot of unknowns and assumptions. You have my full support in your efforts and I absolutely love the fact you keep on carrying the legacy of Orpheus and push the R&D further. I wouldn't say no to some private listening tests in the future

It goes without saying that the first video in this series you guys made was a huge success and I love to see your approach to the topic, it is just fantastic. Am looking much towards the next one.

 

[eskamobob1]

Hi, thanks for your confidence in our team. I believe we'll address this topic in a later episode, but I'm happy to give some background why it's unfortunately not so trivial for us:
1. Burden of scale: Sennheiser/sonova consumer hearing is many times larger than practically all our competitors in the audiophile space. This also has the disadvantage that our requirements towards manufacturing are very different. Any product or transducer development needs to be set up in a way that makes it scalable and has a high yield that satisfies the expectation of modern manufacturing experts. Most of our efforts in development usually go into improving manufacturing consistency & yield. This structure is simply not a good fit for headphones that only sells a few thousand times a year.
2. Logistics: During the separation of Sennheiser Pro and Consumer, Pro Sennheiser (obviously) kept the manufacturing lines for condenser microphone capsules, where our electrostatic transducers are also assembled. That means that at the moment we don't have manufacturing capacities for electrostatic transducers available. This includes for instance sputtering devices to coat the diaphragm accurately and a clean room for assembly. From a business perspective, building up an entire manufacturing line for a low quantity product line has a very hard time competing with business cases with less up-front capital expenditure. I know that doesn't sound like a sexy reason, but jobs and peoples livelihoods depend on our growth trajectory, so I take it seriously.
3. Perfect is the enemy of better: My personal ambition for a new Sennheiser electrostatic headphone would be to revive the performance of the old HE 90, which to me are the best headphones ever developed. The cost of the glass stators in the old orpheus have increased significantly from 30 years ago. The cost factor between cheap metal stators and the original ones is over 100, and the headphone cost alone would be in the price region of the HE 1, which obviously defeats the purpose. I wish we find an alternative that offers equal stiffness and acoustic transparency, but it doesn't look like it at the moment.

I can assure you that practically every experienced acoustics engineer at the company wishes dearly for that product to come to life. I can't promise you anything, except that we'll do our best to make it happen somehow.

Hi Jermo,

Couple of questions for you.

1. In the most recent video you talk about FR not being the entire story with HE90 (something I certainly agree from personal experience) with the diaphragm weight and other mechanical aspects playing a large role in the sound. We have been seeing a fair number of large names in the space going further and further into the idea that FR dictates all due to headphones being largely minimum phase devices (which they do seem to be, and the argument seems to make sense to me at least). What do you think is missing from the conversation here to truly talk about the difference that make HE90 and HD580 (both tuned quite similarly IMO) such wildly different experiences? Is it as simple as our measurements maybe arent viewed with high enough resolution? Or is there something more fundamental that is being missed?

2. I am an HE1 owner and have had the chance to play with HE90 on several amps as well. Frankly, I don't think HE1 holds up to HE90. While the internal dac of HE1 is fairly lacking IMO (about similar to a bricasti M1SE non-mdx IME), HE90 realistically out performs HE1 in a lot of ways even off of much less dacs but with propper amplification. Is there something about the can its self that is limiting this? Or if we were to find/make a way to use a better external amp would HE1 end up scaling similarly to HE90?

3. Any plans to publish at least the pinout/headphone specs for HE1 so a new amplifier could be made? Tangentially related, any idea on what the tube requirements are for HE1? I would love to roll it and from what I can tell the 802s are JJ 12Au7s (a tube I'm quite familiar with the options for) but do you actualy need a matched octal? Two quads? Are there very specific Gms and such that are targeted (given the fact that tube replacements come with specific locations)? Or am i even off base on what the tubes are?

Thank you very much for your time and I love seeing senn back active in the comunity!

 

[headstef]

I commented on youtube but I wish to write it in this community too:

Congratulations for sharing your thoughts, views and enthusiasm with your costumers! Beyond the Curve is a very nice and useful idea, with great potential to help both sides significantly (designers+costumers). Being a Sennheiser admirer and user of 4-5 different models (since my HD-580 Precision), I really like to see Sennheiser very active and employing young people with knowledge and new ideas.
Also, I think it's time that all this knowledge and enthusiasm takes shape in a new flagship open model that will elevate sound quality to the highest possible standards of dynamic headphones today. HD-800S is excellent but I think you can do even better after 15 years of more experience and developments, and stay on the neutrality path too. Also it doesn't have to cost more than € 1500 to be appreciated, please retain Sennheiser's friendly, honest and mature profile. Thank you for all your work!

 

[headblid]

Hmmm,

Being a Sennheiser fan, I did pick up both an hd700 and an hd820 at parts of my journey… let’s just say they really didn’t hit it like the other well know Sennheisers did both in terms of sound (hd700), ergonomics and fit (hd820) and price.

I don’t know what the internal story is for those two but they definitely missed the spot for the majority unlike say the 800s or the 600/650.

Whatever the learnings were for the hd700 and 820, I just hope they contribute to whatever big Sennheiser headphones next in a positive way.

Sennheiser has never made a “bad” headphone. Even the HD700. Very unjustly maligned IMO.

All their headphones in the $50-$500 price ranges have always been great value for money. And consistent.

That’s perhaps the one word I can solidly ascribe to Sennheiser. Consistent. I’ve owned countless Senns and I’ve never had a problem with two of the same model sounding different. And always near perfect driver matching. And having recently purchased the 660s2, nothing has changed

I still have the entire 5- - and 6- - range (but sadly never had the 580 Jubilee) because they will always sound wonderful and deliver music as music, not excess detail or feigned excitement.

I’d like to see Sennheiser design a new headphone using the shape of the 6- - model, but a bit larger, and using the 800 driver. And retail for around $950

 

[Hameem]

Yes, correct, where is the midbass? i can't hear the punchy sound, maybe the HD 900 is the next basshead headphones, since you already have all the flat models, make the bass end game monster.

 

[ericpalonen]

If I was only allowed to keep one headphone, it would probably be the HD580 or HD600. HD480 and HD590 are special as well.

Wow I haven't heard an HD 590 mention in a loooong time! For me, quite possibly the comfiest pair we've ever created along with HD 700. I was never crazy about the 590's sound but for those who like clean & crisp treble, it fits the bill. It had a sister the HD 500A that you can occasionally find on eBay, but the coupling was a vinyl pad so it changed the sound a bit. The 480 design was awesome but short lived...the plastic in it could survive an atomic bomb. Awesome collection and thx for sharing it with us!

 

[Beagle]

Wow I haven't heard an HD 590 mention in a loooong time! For me, quite possibly the comfiest pair we've ever created along with HD 700. I was never crazy about the 590's sound but for those who like clean & crisp treble, it fits the bill. It had a sister the HD 500A that you can occasionally find on eBay, but the coupling was a vinyl pad so it changed the sound a bit. The 480 design was awesome but short lived...the plastic in it could survive an atomic bomb. Awesome collection and thx for sharing it with us!

Yes the 590 is so light and comfy. It has a rather cold, dull and grainy upper mid and treble. But that sense of space....

 

[eskamobob1]

Too smooth for vocals..

Que...?

It's a fair bit too rich and vivid to be called neutral imo

 

[eskamobob1]

Sennheiser has never made a “bad” headphone. Even the HD700. Very unjustly maligned IMO.

I would contest that statement heavily

 

[headstef]

I commented under the youtube video but I wish to write it in this community too:

Congratulations for sharing your thoughts, views and enthusiasm with your costumers! Beyond the Curve is a very nice and useful idea, with great potential to help both sides significantly (designers+costumers). Being a Sennheiser admirer and user of 4-5 different models (since my HD-580 Precision), I really like to see Sennheiser very active and employing young people with knowledge and new ideas.
Also, I think it's time that all this knowledge and enthusiasm takes shape in a new flagship open model that will elevate sound quality to the highest possible standards of dynamic headphones today. HD-800S is excellent but I think you can do even better after 15 years of more experience and developments, and stay on the neutrality path too. Also it doesn't have to cost more than € 1500 to be appreciated, please retain Sennheiser's friendly, honest and mature profile. Thank you for all your work!