Best Headphones/Amp Combo for Classical Music (especially Opera); Budget: $2000-2500
Jan 7, 2013 at 9:49 PM Post #46 of 59
Quote:
Hi folks,

I'd love to expand my stereo speaker system to include headphones. My current system looks like this:

Densen B-410 cd player / Oppo BDP-95 blu-ray player -> Densen B-110 integrated amplifier -> Verity Rienzi loudspeakers

As mentioned in the title, I'm looking for a headphone setup to listen to classical music, especially opera. The Densen cd player would serve as the primary source for my headphones setup. My budget is $2000-2500 for the headphones/amp combo ( ~1000 for each of the two components). After having studied David Mahler's battle of the flagships and a bunch of forum threads, the following headphones have piqued my interest:

Sennheiser HD 800
Beyerdynamic T1
Hifiman HE-6 or HE-500
Grado RS1
Any comments on these? Other suggestions?

An issue that I'm particularly concerned about is a headphones' ability to deal with non-ideal recordings. I'd say about half of my cds are recordings from the 50s, 60s and 70s by great artists like Callas, Bjorling, etc. I need a headphone setup that will be able to bring out the beauty of these recordings, so I can focus on the performances, and not be continually reminded of the inferior quality of the recordings. Some people seem to think that the HD 800s sound pretty bad without a great recording. Is this true?

Concerning amps, I haven't really been able to identify any frontrunners. I live in Europe, so it would be difficult for me to get certain brands like Woo Audio (the WA2 seems to go very well together with the Beyerdynamic T1). Lehmann amps appear to be very popular around here. The SPL auditor would also be an option. I'm open to both SS and tube amps. Suggestions?

I should probably also mention that I always listen to music lying down on a sofa. Any headphones I get should be able to accommodate that fact.

tl;dr
I'm looking for a headphones/amp combo for around $2000-2500. I listen to classical music, especially opera. My source is a Densen B-410 cd player. The headphones setup has to be able to deal with my collection of old opera recordings (50s, 60s, 70s). I live in Europe.

Thanks so much,

Joel


OOh that's a hard one. Do you splurge on the cans and get a low end amp, or do you splurge on the amp and get some 701's or 880's. Decisions decisions.....
 
I can't comment on the amp as I'm quite content with my FiiO E9, but the Beyerdynamic DT880's are excellent for classical music. I find that the headroom even an inexpensive amp like the E9 gives with classical music approaches a live and dynamic sound like in reality.
 
Some of the tracks I use to determine how much headroom a set up can give are
1812 Overture with report, In the hall of the mountain king, and Yo-Yo Ma's album Vivaldi's Cello.
 
I find that if I can turn the volume up to a comfortable level for the quieter passages, and not need to re-adjust it on the louder sections that a system is up to snuff.
 
I've heard marvelous things about the Tesla's except that they are missing some essential and difficult to describe 'wow factor'. Perhaps they are too analytical, I don't know but if you paired them with a warmer amplifier it might be voodoo magic.
 
Honestly though, at the price range you are looking at you should find a retailer and try the equipment out rather than blind buy.
 
Good luck and let us know what you end up going with and how you like it.
 
Jan 10, 2013 at 8:33 PM Post #47 of 59
I am relatively new to using computers to listen to music . My current set up includes Schiit Valhalla Tube Headphone amp,  Bifrost Dac  and Beyerdynamic DT990(600ohm) headphones. I currently download most of my music using eclassical and when I can afford it 24 bit masters. sound is crystal clear. Just listening to Vaughan Williams Symphony # 2, Chandos label, London symphony Orchestra , Richard Hickox conducting. Very enjoyable
 
Jan 17, 2013 at 2:19 PM Post #48 of 59
For classical..try he500 (velours pads) with a 337 as amp and then put tungsols gt mesh plates (or rca 5693 reds) as driver tubes and tungsols 5998 as power tubes in the 337 and put some high quality lossless flac/wav files on..throw away the terrible standard silvercable (is actually copper with silver coating) and use a good litz copper (black widows 22awg for instance) headphone cable..

u would believe ur hearing the musicians playing live in front of u :wink:
 
Feb 4, 2013 at 8:37 PM Post #49 of 59
Hey folks,
First off, I wanted to thank all of you for your suggestions and help. As before, I'd love to share my experiences with you.
 
WA6SE and Tube Rolling
The Woo Audio WA6SE is fantastic!
Initially I was quite surprised (even a little shocked) by how neutral the WA6SE sounded. I was expecting something a little warmer. I thought: “Oops!”; after all, various people did warn me that the WA6SE was a more solid state sounding tube amp. Over time, however, I’ve come to see that the WA6SE’s sound is really more natural than it is neutral in that it presents you with a tonal balance that is mostly neutral but has just the right amount of warmth to sound very lifelike. I’ve also found that tube rolling alters the tonal balance quite significantly. I’ve tried four drive/power tubes and my favorites for classical music are by far the Amperex 6EM7s. They aren’t particularly warm, and they don’t seem to sound very good with a number of headphones, but when they do work, they offer significant improvements in terms of resolution, dynamics and soundstage. I should probably add that I didn’t find the 6EM7s to be particularly well suited for genres other than classical music or jazz. I found the best genre all-rounder tube to be Westinghouse 6FD7. I thought the Raytheon 6EW7s were okay, and I didn’t particularly care for the International Servicemaster 6DR7s. I also have some Zenith 6GL7s on the way, another favorite of Jack’s aside from the 6EM7s. I’m very curious to see how they compare. In terms of rectifier tubes, the Sophia Princess 274B blows the stock Shu Guang 274B out of the water. No contest there. I also did some power cable rolling. I found that the Fisch Audio P0 worked very well with the WA6SE; it gave the sound more body.
 
On to headphones
I started off listening to my WA6SE with my HD 600s. Wow! I have never heard the HD 600s sound this good. I now understand why these are ranked 21st in the Battle of The Flagships. Music pours forth so naturally from these headphones; it’s really impressive. Sure, the soundstage could be larger and details could be better resolved, but nevertheless, my overall impression of the HD 600s was very good. Nonetheless, I still wanted to see how the other headphones on the market stacked up against the HD 600s, so I went on a little auditioning trip.
 
I auditioned the following headphones with my WA6SE (using 6EM7/274B) connected to my Densen CD-player: Sennheiser HD 650, HD 700 and HD 800, Shure 1840, AKG Q701, Ultrasone Ed 8 and Ed 10, Audez'e LCD2 and LCD3 and HiFiMAN HE-500.
Side note: I wasn't able to audition the Beyerdynamic T1s. They're sold out everywhere in my country. I called the local distributor, who told me that they were expecting a shipment in maybe a month or two, maybe longer; he didn’t really know. I then called a few people at Beyerdynamic's HQ in Germany, but none of them could tell me where to find a place to audition them either, not even in Southern Germany. I was told that I really shouldn’t expect to be able to audition the T1s before purchasing them because they’re oh so popular. So much for the T1s, I guess. I will try, however, God knows where, to audition them in a few months. Anyway...
 
Of all the headphones I tested, only one really stood out, namely, drumroll... the HD 800! Wow! On the WA6SE, the HD 800s are magic! This combo allowed me to immerse myself into my music unlike any other system I’ve heard. It was a wholly different listening experience compared to any of the other headphones I auditioned, and that includes the LCD3s whose sound I really loved when I auditioned them using the Lehmann Linear. Resolution, soundstage, imaging, transparency and dynamics were all breathtaking. The WA6SE also took care of most the problems I had when auditioning the HD 800s on the Violectric V200: the sound had much more impact and body and wasn’t nearly as bright. I should also mention that the HD 800s are immensely comfortable. I can listen to music for hours while lying down. Size and weight are no problem at all.
 
Since I felt the HD 800s were head and shoulders above all the other headphones I tested, I went ahead and purchased them. In their stock form I would give them a solid A. Not quite an A+, however. Even though the WA6SE is overall a great match for them, the HD 800s remain slightly bright, a little thin and a touch clinical. They’re that close to perfection, but not quite there yet. Let me introduce you to the…
 
Cardas Clear Headphone Cable
I spoke to a number of people about ways to improve my system to get to that A+ level. A few people recommended that I try replacing the stock headphone cable. I ended up ordering the Cardas Clear headphone cable. I didn’t really expect all that much from it and was even anticipating having to return it; I had read so many comments stating that headphone cables only make subtle differences at best. Well, I plugged in my Cardas Clear and started listening to some of Pavarotti’s better known pieces. Within a few minutes, I had tears in my eyes. What the Cardas Clear does is give the HD 800s a soul, as ridiculous as that may sound. All the weaknesses of the HD 800 were gone. I was getting full-bodied, emotionally involving and truly cohesive sound; and not just that, soundstage, dynamics, and resolution were also improved. I was just blown away by the difference that this cable made. It smoothed out all the hot treble I was getting before without losing any of the treble detail. Where I noticed the most improvement was on vocals. In their stock form, the vocals on the HD 800 are very good but not quite perfect. The problem seems to lie with the stock cable because the Cardas Clear transformed the way my HD 800s portray vocals; voices now sound extremely lifelike and the emotions of singers are so palpable. I was blown away. Anyway, I probably ought to end my Ode to the Cardas Clear.
 
Small Proviso: The HD 800s don’t work for everything
Bad recordings, be they old or just poorly made, still don’t sound particularly great with my HD 800s. With many pieces recorded in the 50s, 60s or earlier, I tend to prefer the HD 600 over the HD 800. Also, when listening to jazz, blues or more popular genres, I often prefer a more laid-back presentation. Initially, I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to use the HD 600 as my alternative to the HD 800 or try a different headphone.
 
One headphone that came up over and over again when looking for headphones that are on the more forgiving side of things was the HiFiMAN HE-500. I decided to audition it for a week, and I must say, I was extremely impressed with it, especially considering its price. It has the perfect voicing for popular music. Vocals are so beautiful. It also has serious amounts of bass, which worked very well for the electronic music I listen to. Unfortunately, they were simply too heavy for me. I thought that the fact that they were smaller than the LCD2/3 would make them much better for listening to music lying down. Unfortunately, their lack of clamping force, which otherwise would be a great thing, has the effect that they slide down producing the same “neck-brace effect” that I experienced with the LCD2/3. However, for someone who listens to music sitting up and doesn’t mind a heavy headphone, I would absolutely recommend them. They’re a superb all-rounder.
 
Since the HE-500 didn’t work out, and none of the other headphones I auditioned really fit the bill, I decided to stick with the HD 600 but chose to also get the HD 650 for an even more laid-back presentation (they’re cheap and basically same price as the 600s where I live). Given my success with recabling my HD 800s, I’m going to get a SAA E-Series cable for my HD 650, which I could then also use with the HD 600 if I wanted to. I’ll let you guys know how that turns out.
 
End Result
Thanks to all your input and help my dear Head-Fiers, I’ve arrived at the promised land. When it comes to classical music, I couldn’t ask for anything more, and I’m not that easy to please. I was going to invest in a Mapleshade isolation platform system, but to be honest, I don’t feel the need for it anymore. I might still go ahead with it sometime in the future, but for now, I’m going to leave everything as it is. There is still some work to be done on an alternative to my HD 800s, and I’ll let you guys know how that goes. That being said, I’m extremely happy with my current system and I couldn’t have done it without all of you.
 
Thanks!
 
Joel
 
Feb 6, 2013 at 2:46 PM Post #50 of 59
Hey Joel, that's a great writeup! You piqued again my interest in the HD800 which I had honestly written off as "too clinical" when I heard them at a meet with the stock cable. Based on past experience with the HD600 and HD-25, I am not surprised the Cardas cable had a big effect. I never understood why Sennheiser can't provide proper cables for their headphones!
I also agree with your findings about the 6EM7 (although Woo sent my some Sylvania, not Amperex). I find the sound a bit harsh, and the tubes a bit too noisy (hopefully due to the tubes being new?), but I really like how they improve the physical presence of the instruments and singers
 
Feb 21, 2013 at 4:20 PM Post #51 of 59
Congrats joel..am happy u found ur soulmate in music
wink.gif

 
Feb 21, 2013 at 11:25 PM Post #52 of 59
What did you think of the HE-500's ear pads? I've heard that they break easily because of the plastic tabs on the back. One reviewer on youtube broke both the original and it's replacement shortly after purchase.
 
 
Feb 22, 2013 at 12:03 AM Post #53 of 59
 Might I suggest trying the hd 800s with the ray samuels rator otl amplifier.I have akg 701s and I love the sound of them with my raptor playing classical music.They sound pretty dimensional together.Of course I have tweaked the raptor with a hifi-tuning supreme fuse and a  meter harmonic thech ac-11 power cord.The tweaks really made a difference in the sound of my raptor.The harmonic tech ac-11 really seems to be optimal with the raptor.It is the only power cord that makes the raptor seem more powerful sounding.I actually have to turn the volume down by one full level detent setting when used with the raptor.
 I had heard that the raptor worked pretty well the the hd800.I know it works well with my akg 701s.I have heard the 800s but for only a brief session so I am not really sure of what they sound like.But from what I remembered they did sound kind of like the 701s in general sound signature.
 I have lcd2 v2s and while they can sound pretty appealing the one area where I find them lacking is in soundstage presentation.They sound kind of flat on soundstage presentation.I much prefer the 701s soundstage presentation they sound more dimensional than the lcd2 v2s.The raptor can be really special sounding with good recordings.I have tried fiddling with a couple of different tube brands but I found that the tubes ray samuels provided with the amp seemed to be the best compromise overall with the amp.
 
Feb 22, 2013 at 1:07 AM Post #54 of 59
i enjoyed the 650s alot out of the WA6-SE, its really an impressive amp! the hd 800 sounds pretty good too.
the 6GL7's will be a little darker with the WA6-SE, they're really nice tubes.
 
also, try and test out a WA2 someday! its really really good with the hd 800s. very sweet sounding, with that silky smooth sound the WA2 has.
 
Feb 22, 2013 at 7:32 AM Post #55 of 59
Quote:
What did you think of the HE-500's ear pads? I've heard that they break easily because of the plastic tabs on the back. One reviewer on youtube broke both the original and it's replacement shortly after purchase.
 

That pad problem only existed on first batch of the pads..the plastic hinches were of bad quality plastic..the latter batches dont hsve same pastic hinches so the problem dont exist anymore..ofcourse if u treat ur hesdphone badly it eventually breaks down..only phone i know of being almost breakfree is the beyerdynamic mmx300..but that thing is built like a tank..i know..i haveone..and that beauty fell i dont know howmany times on the floor and it orks flawlessly for years now..
biggrin.gif

 
Feb 22, 2013 at 7:54 AM Post #56 of 59
Quote:
 
I auditioned the following headphones with my WA6SE (using 6EM7/274B) connected to my Densen CD-player: Sennheiser HD 650, HD 700 and HD 800, Shure 1840, AKG Q701, Ultrasone Ed 8 and Ed 10, Audez'e LCD2 and LCD3 and HiFiMAN HE-500.
Side note: I wasn't able to audition the Beyerdynamic T1s. They're sold out everywhere in my country. I called the local distributor, who told me that they were expecting a shipment in maybe a month or two, maybe longer; he didn’t really know. I then called a few people at Beyerdynamic's HQ in Germany, but none of them could tell me where to find a place to audition them either, not even in Southern Germany. I was told that I really shouldn’t expect to be able to audition the T1s before purchasing them because they’re oh so popular. So much for the T1s, I guess. I will try, however, God knows where, to audition them in a few months. Anyway...
 
Of all the headphones I tested, only one really stood out, namely, drumroll... the HD 800! Wow! On the WA6SE, the HD 800s are magic! This combo allowed me to immerse myself into my music unlike any other system I’ve heard. It was a wholly different listening experience compared to any of the other headphones I auditioned, and that includes the LCD3s whose sound I really loved when I auditioned them using the Lehmann Linear. Resolution, soundstage, imaging, transparency and dynamics were all breathtaking. The WA6SE also took care of most the problems I had when auditioning the HD 800s on the Violectric V200: the sound had much more impact and body and wasn’t nearly as bright. I should also mention that the HD 800s are immensely comfortable. I can listen to music for hours while lying down. Size and weight are no problem at all.
 
Since I felt the HD 800s were head and shoulders above all the other headphones I tested, I went ahead and purchased them. In their stock form I would give them a solid A. Not quite an A+, however. Even though the WA6SE is overall a great match for them, the HD 800s remain slightly bright, a little thin and a touch clinical. They’re that close to perfection, but not quite there yet.

 
+1 
 
i should really listen to the HD 800 and WA6-SE more....  after i read this, i decided to try the HD 800 on the WA6-SE, something i don't usually do since i just usually pair it with the WA2, and wow, the WA6-SE keeps impressing me. after i upgraded the tubes, im slowly starting to enjoy the WA6-SE more and more and see that it really is on the same level as my WA2. I think with the 6GL7 and 596 tubes it sounds really good!!! 
 
The WA6-SE seems slightly more transparent because of the wider soundstage and better bass/clarity over the WA2, though it loses that smoothness, but i think that the smoothness also can take away from the HD 800's detail somewhat, the HD 800 really do sound better with a more open amp. 
 
 
downside, it is bright on some recordings, and isn't as sweet as the WA2 (which i think does better on vocals and some types of music)
 
seems like the WA6-SE might be slightly better than the WA2 for the HD 800, and the WA2 is better for the T1. 
 
conclusion, the WA6-SE improves ALOT with tube upgrades, and is definitely a world-class amp along with the WA2. 
i need to give my HD 800 more love, i don't listen to it as much as the T1 cause the WA2 really takes the T1 to another level.
 
 
 
really good impressions btw, should post it on the WA6-SE thread so i can link it to people when they pm me for WA6-SE/WA2 advice, which i get alot of!
http://www.head-fi.org/t/587285/woo-audio-wa6-wa6se-tubes-comments-pictures-and-advice
 
Feb 23, 2013 at 3:59 PM Post #57 of 59
 for classical, the rs1 would be the poorest choice. small soundstage and too colored. the Hifiman might be a bit uncomfortable as well especially if you didn't enjoy the grados too much. people tend to find the Hifimans a bit heavy and awkward.



T1/HD800 with the WA2, your search is over. the V200 would also be a good option, but be aware that its still an SS amp and can still be bright on some recordings.
I agree with everything you've said. Additionally, for lousy, trebly, piercing recordings the HD650s are the best choice, though the soundstage is nowhere near the hd800 and T1.
 
Feb 23, 2013 at 4:40 PM Post #58 of 59
Quote:
I agree with everything you've said. Additionally, for lousy, trebly, piercing recordings the HD650s are the best choice, though the soundstage is nowhere near the hd800 and T1.

 
Or rather, the HD600, as it sound like the HD650 only more neutral and more effortless. Sounds good on most stuff, it doesn't have the "impressive" type of sound, it just sound - enjoyable! ...  :wink:
 

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