[dmac03]

What about a balanced dac under 1k? The EE minimax has received lots of praise, but it doesn't have balanced outputs. Are there any other contenders balanced outputs is a must?
 
We've got some audio-gd units to choose from, the classic psa d3, the new musical fidelity m1dac. Does anyone have any experience?

 

[nspindel]

I used to own the Little Dot DAC_1.  For the money, this piece cannot be beat.  $269 plus shipping, for a balanced dac.  I used it for two years and it was great.  I've since graduated to considerably more expensive gear (W4S DAC2 = $1500...), but that Little Dot was an amazing performer.  If you're not looking to spend a lot of money on a balanced dac, you simply don't need to look any further than the LD.

 

[nspindel]

Quote:

To be honest, I doubt DACs that are quite a bit cheaper and measure well (say the Cambridge DACmagic) could be distinguished from the Benchmark under proper listening conditions - that is, eliminating subjective bias.
 
A DAC has one job, which it must do measurably well. IMO, a coloured DAC is a broken DAC.

 
Not to start a big war here, but I'm afraid I just don't agree with your opinion.  DACs make a tremendous difference.  They are your analog source.  The DAC chip is completely measurable.  But you're forgetting the A in DAC.  There is an analog stage here, built with electronic components that can vary tremendously in quality, price, and sound quality.  Two DACs built around the same chipset can have very different sounds.
 
Would you make the same argument for a cd player?  A cd player is nothing more than a digital transport and a DAC in one unit.  A digital transport certainly should be completely measurable, so the only thing remaining is the DAC side of the cd player.  You're saying that cd players should all be indistinguishable?
 
I agree with you that the digital side of this component should be completely measurable, but once you are dealing with an analog signal, all bets are off.  Quality power supplies matter.  Quality caps matter.  Design differences impart different tonal qualities.  Differences from one DAC to another do exist, and they do matter.
 
I don't understand why DACs are the component where people make this "it has one job to do well" type of argument.  Why is a power amplifier any different?  A power amplifier has one job - to take in an analog signal and amplify it.  Do you think power amplifiers should be indistinguishable as well?
 

 

[tim3320070]

Quote:

 
Not to start a big war here, but I'm afraid I just don't agree with your opinion.  DACs make a tremendous difference.  They are your analog source.  The DAC chip is completely measurable.  But you're forgetting the A in DAC.  There is an analog stage here, built with electronic components that can vary tremendously in quality, price, and sound quality.  Two DACs built around the same chipset can have very different sounds.
 
Would you make the same argument for a cd player?  A cd player is nothing more than a digital transport and a DAC in one unit.  A digital transport certainly should be completely measurable, so the only thing remaining is the DAC side of the cd player.  You're saying that cd players should all be indistinguishable?
 
I agree with you that the digital side of this component should be completely measurable, but once you are dealing with an analog signal, all bets are off.  Quality power supplies matter.  Quality caps matter.  Design differences impart different tonal qualities.  Differences from one DAC to another do exist, and they do matter.
 
I don't understand why DACs are the component where people make this "it has one job to do well" type of argument.  Why is a power amplifier any different?  A power amplifier has one job - to take in an analog signal and amplify it.  Do you think power amplifiers should be indistinguishable as well?
 

Some people feel an amp is an amp but from my experience, I have had the greatest improvement in SQ with a well built amplifier. I have also owned DAC's that were in the $300 (V-DAC, Musiland MD10) range up to my current Audio-gd Ref-8 with very robust power supply and filtering which gives a more realistic and deeper 3d-like involvement in well recorded music- so my point is, I agree DAC's play a role in better SQ.
 

 

[powerlifter450]

The Wyred 4 Sound DAC-1

 

[Shahrose]

EE Minimax. As some others have mentioned, roll the opamps and tube and you've got a DAC that competes with offerings well above its price bracket.

 

[franklyshankly]

I'm interested in the Minimax, also, but since I'm only using USB is it still the best choice? How does the minimax compare to, say, the ADG NFB2?

 

[Shahrose]

Quote:

I'm interested in the Minimax, also, but since I'm only using USB is it still the best choice? How does the minimax compare to, say, the ADG NFB2?

I would still pick the Minimax without a second thought. Here's a recent review comparing both: http://www.digitalaudioreview.net.au/index.php/audio-reviews/digital-source-reviews/item/177-audio-gd-nfb-2-dac-19-series
 
Excerpt:
 
"This Audio-gd can't quite match the Eastern Electric Minimax (AU$800) for dynamics or detail (what can at less than a grand?). I should qualify the above with some important context: the Eastern Electric Minimax is a freak of nature!  It offers comparable performance to the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 at half the price.  Impressive bang for buck...which the Audio-gd NFB-2 more than matches when we scale our expectations back to the ~AU$500 DAC market."
 
That's with a stock Minimax.

 

[nspindel]

Repeat from earlier. Little Dot Dac1 is $269 plus shipping. I owned it, and it sounds great. A balanced 2496 dac with USB, for about $300 shipped. There are plenty of great reviews of it on headfi. If you're on a budget this is such a no-brainer.

Edit: I should also add that I sold mine for $269. I got full purchase price back after almost two years, because I shipped for free versus the expense of paying for shipping from China.

I knew all along that this wasn't going to be the permanent piece of gear. But I didn't have the funds to buy the permanent piece back then, I wanted to buy something good but inexpensive to hold me over for a few years. To get that good of a return when I sold the piece was awesome. Is my Wyred4Sound DAC2 better? Of course, but its 5X the price.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

 
Not to start a big war here, but I'm afraid I just don't agree with your opinion.  DACs make a tremendous difference.  They are your analog source.  The DAC chip is completely measurable.  But you're forgetting the A in DAC.  There is an analog stage here, built with electronic components that can vary tremendously in quality, price, and sound quality.  Two DACs built around the same chipset can have very different sounds.
 
The analog stages of a DAC are all completely measurable as well, the output has its own FR, noise and distortion products and a well-implemented DAC will have negligible deviations from the input signal, if it is high fidelity that is, of course it is eminently possible to alter the output sound but then it is no longer high fidelity by definition. The digital and analog technology used in a DAC is a **really** mature technology now and far from expensive, there is no reason a $200 DAC built to a competent design cannot produce high fidelity output (audibly) indistinguishable from a similarly well-implemented $1000 DAC and in fact tests elsewhere have shown this to be true on numerous occiasions.
 
 
Would you make the same argument for a cd player?  A cd player is nothing more than a digital transport and a DAC in one unit.  A digital transport certainly should be completely measurable, so the only thing remaining is the DAC side of the cd player.  You're saying that cd players should all be indistinguishable?
 
Level matched most CD players are indistinguisghable under controlled conditions, the give-away is the output level, a 0.5db difference is almost always detected as a difference in quality, but this is an illusion. I tested my own CD players from different eras and with very different topologies, the difference in level was always detected but level matched to about 0.1db they were all the same. Ditto my external DAC which is far (measurably) superior to the in-built-DACs on all my CD players but is also extremely hot, again adjusting for level differences....
 
 

 
 

 

[Happy Camper]

A used Anedio D1. Good luck finding one.

 

[Tomusic]

you are arguing on well known subjects
CD players all sound the same because again...digital sound
LP players sound differently because it is pure analog
 
 

 

[jenneth]

A used PS Audio DLiii (~$500 or so).

 

[garysohn]

A number of good suggestions.  I just want to put my two cents in for Cleo.

 

[nspindel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 
Not to start a big war here, but I'm afraid I just don't agree with your opinion.  DACs make a tremendous difference.  They are your analog source.  The DAC chip is completely measurable.  But you're forgetting the A in DAC.  There is an analog stage here, built with electronic components that can vary tremendously in quality, price, and sound quality.  Two DACs built around the same chipset can have very different sounds.
 
The analog stages of a DAC are all completely measurable as well, the output has its own FR, noise and distortion products and a well-implemented DAC will have negligible deviations from the input signal, if it is high fidelity that is, of course it is eminently possible to alter the output sound but then it is no longer high fidelity by definition. The digital and analog technology used in a DAC is a **really** mature technology now and far from expensive, there is no reason a $200 DAC built to a competent design cannot produce high fidelity output (audibly) indistinguishable from a similarly well-implemented $1000 DAC and in fact tests elsewhere have shown this to be true on numerous occiasions.
 
 
Would you make the same argument for a cd player?  A cd player is nothing more than a digital transport and a DAC in one unit.  A digital transport certainly should be completely measurable, so the only thing remaining is the DAC side of the cd player.  You're saying that cd players should all be indistinguishable?
 
Level matched most CD players are indistinguisghable under controlled conditions, the give-away is the output level, a 0.5db difference is almost always detected as a difference in quality, but this is an illusion. I tested my own CD players from different eras and with very different topologies, the difference in level was always detected but level matched to about 0.1db they were all the same. Ditto my external DAC which is far (measurably) superior to the in-built-DACs on all my CD players but is also extremely hot, again adjusting for level differences....
 

"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".[size=xx-small]--Nelson Pass[/size]