[philodox]

FYI, the Opera Consonance Cyber 20 is one of the worst amps I have ever heard. It is no wonder that the Bada PH-12 beats it.

 

[chillysalsa]

I didn't like the Cyber 20 either, and yet this glowing review from Positive Feedback:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue11/cyber20.htm

Anyway, I digress. I think the Bada would be interesting to hear and compare to the other hybrid designs like the Millet.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells Art: Thanks for your input. My Chinese audiophile friend, who recommended the Bad a PH12 to me over the Opera Consonance Cyber 20 which I had been considering, confirmed again what the Bada chief designer originally said about the Bada PH12: "PH-12 EMPLOYS NO GLOBAL NEGATIVE FEEDBACK AND IS IN SINGLE-ENDED CLASS A, HIGH POWER DESIGN, THE CAPACITY OF CAPS IS NEARLY EQUAL TO A MINI AMPLIFIER. THE MUSIC CHARACTERS OF PH-12 IS A GOOD MIDRANGE COUPLED WITH GOOD HIGH AND LOW EXTENSION - WITH WELL BALANCED FULL RANGE AND WIDE SOUNDSTAGE. IF COMPARED WITH THE FAMOUS OPERA CONSONANCE CYBER 20, PH-12 OFFERS BETTER EXTENSION AND SOUND STAGE, OVERALL FEELINGS OF BALANCE IS NOTED IN PH-12. SINCE CYBER 20 IS USING TRANSFORMER OUTPUT AND SO THE SOUND IS DEPENDED ON THE TRANSFORMER QUALITY - IT IS THUS NOTED THAT THE HIGH AND LOW EXTENSION IS A BIT RESTRICTED AS WELL AS THE SOUND STAGE IN THE 20."

What your friend confirmed does not make the Bada amp a SET. Transistors can run single ended in class A with no global feedback. I have such an amp... its called a Monarchy sm-70 pro. My amp is not a SET. If you look at the advertisements on the cattylink page you will see what ferbose is talking about. In one amp profile for example.... the Korsun v8i, I saw them state the amp had 24 sanken tubes for the outputs. Sankens are well known high quality transisitors.... not tubes. I am sure there is no intent to deceive anyone. This is nothing more than translation difficulty.

 

[drarthurwells]

Thanks again for the info.

The Bada chief engineer said to my Chinese audiophile friend that the PH12 was a single ended class A amp using no global negative feedback.

It uses three 6NS7 triod type tubes.

I put these two things together and mistakenly called it a single ended triod (SET) amp.


BTW

Those are interesting comments above about the Cyber 20. Shows you can't always trust glowing magazine or site reviews.

The Bada Chief engineer/designer was somewhat diplomatic about the Cyber 20, while my Chinese audiophile friend was much less diplomatic and steered me away from it quickly, while fulfilling my request to contact Bada about comparing the PH12 to the Cyber 20.

The Bada has been just what I have been looking for. Anyone in the Gainesvile or Apopka Florida area is welcome to audition it.

 

[Solude]

Don't think I saw it anywhere but Rudistor tube amps are also tube/ss hybrids and quite a bit less than $2000 I might add

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solude Don't think I saw it anywhere but Rudistor tube amps are also tube/ss hybrids and quite a bit less than $2000 I might add.

What costs $2000? You can get the Bada PH-12 Export Edition with Russian tubes for $298 shipped.

 

[Ferbose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells Thanks again for the info. The Bada chief engineer said to my Chinese audiophile friend that the PH12 was a single ended class A amp using no global negative feedback. It uses three 6NS7 triod type tubes. I put these two things together and mistakenly called it a single ended triod (SET) amp.

Glad to see things sorted out.

Again, I must say I have nothing against Chinese hybrid amps and I do not claim the superiority of all-tube or even SET over hybrid design. Aren't some folks adding OP-amps to the famous RKV nowadays

? in fact I prefer a Chinese manufactured hybrid amp to drive my K1000 on some occasions.

I have never heard the BADA amp but was just trying to provide some information for those who can't read Chinese on BADA website.

 

[Solude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells I got a total quote with the total order well over $2,000

Sorry saw that and thought it was the amp price.

 

[drarthurwells]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjcha I'm not a fan of the Cosmic, and unfortunately, I have not heard the other amps you reference in your review. Have you listened to other amps that would give us a frame of reference? I think Ray Samuels' entire line is a good reference, if only because so many of us are familar with them, as well as the Gilmore amps. Best regards, -Jason

Art: The amps for phones I have owned (and not just heard on a temporary basis), and which I well know their sound, are the David Hafler 110 pre-amp and headphone amp combo, the Headroom Micro with desktop module, the Headroom Cosmic, the Stax (cost thousands but can't remember the model) with its own dedicated amp, the Lehmann Black Cube linear) the Ming Da (Meixing) MC66AE, and now the Bada PH12.

The only amp I would ever consider now are hybrids that give me the best of solid state and the best of tubes, particulary Class A output with the OTL design to give more natural timbre.


Solude: Don't think I saw it anywhere but Rudistor tube amps are also tube/ss hybrids and quite a bit less than $2000 I might add.

Art: Now that sounds interesting - I assume, though, that it is not an OTL design but uses a transformer in the output. Any owners care to post about it? Any owners in Florida (North or Central) that would want to compare with the Bada PH12?

What about other hybrids available beside the Bada PH12 that are also an OTL design?

 

[drarthurwells]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferbose Aren't some folks adding OP-amps to the famous RKV nowadays ? in fact I prefer a Chinese manufactured hybrid amp to drive my K1000 on some occasions.

Art: I have an aversion to opamps in the amplification output, even in Class A. Comments anyone?


I assume You refer to your Jolida integrated hybrid speaker amp that you use with headphones. Does it have a headphone out? Is it Class AB instead of Class A?

 

[Ferbose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells Quote: Originally Posted by Solude Don't think I saw it anywhere but Rudistor tube amps are also tube/ss hybrids and quite a bit less than $2000 I might add. Art: Now that sounds interesting - I assume, though, that it is not an OTL design but uses a transformer in the output. Any owners care to post about it? Any owners in Florida (North or Central) that would want to compare with the Bada PH12? What about other hybrids available beside the Bada PH12 that are also an OTL design?

Every hybrid amp is an OTL design, basically. Hybrid amps use transistors for power amplification, which don't need output transformers to begin with. When people say OTL, they are always talking about amps with tubes for the final output stage (power amplification). Amps with transistors for power amplfication naturally don't have output transformers, at least I have never seen one. Saying a hybrid amp is OTL is almost like saying a CD player does not incorporate a tonearm. And OTL is not such a big deal anyway. Many tube amps with transformers sound great as well. There is really nothing special about BADA's circuit topology that guarantees good sound. An amp does not need any exotic circuit topology to sound good. In fact, Ray Samuels once said, every audio circuit has been reused a million times.

 

[Ferbose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells I assume You refer to your Jolida integrated hybrid speaker amp that you use with headphones. Does it have a headphone out? Is it Class AB instead of Class A?

K1000 is designed to be driven by speaker outputs of speaker amps, because it requires so much voltage swing to drive. Few headphone amplifiers can drive K1000 adequately, and a special adapter cable is needed to use K1000 with TRS jacks. If a headphone amplifier can output 0.5-1W into a 120 ohm load, than it probably can drive K1000.

 

[drarthurwells]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferbose Every hybrid amp is an OTL design, basically. Hybrid amps use transistors for power amplification, which don't need output transformers to begin with. When people say OTL, they are always talking about amps with tubes for the final output stage (power amplification). Amps with transistors for power amplfication naturally don't have output transformers, at least I have never seen one. Saying a hybrid amp is OTL is almost like saying a CD player does not incorporate a tonearm. And OTL is not such a big deal anyway. Many tube amps with transformers sound great as well. There is really nothing special about BADA's circuit topology that guarantees good sound. An amp does not need any exotic circuit topology to sound good. In fact, Ray Samuels once said, every audio circuit has been reused a million times.

Confusing to me. Please clarify:

The BADA has a huge capacitor (3 inch high and 5 inch diameter), given it does not use an output transformer, like the Single power Supra OTL does, and other tube OTL designs have. The huge capacitor is in lieu of a transformer of some sort, I assume, making it an OTL design in addition to the OTL of its MosFet output.

Do all hybrid headphone amps feature this big a capacitor, given, as you say that they don't use any transformer in the output? The Bada is the only one I know of tha tuses this huge capcator. Why then does it need such a huge capacitor? If Bada did not use this big capacitor then they would have to use a transformer instead, right?

Going back to SACD lover's comments below:

Tubes excell at voltage delivery while solid state excells at current delivery... which is the whole theory behind combining these two different amplification devices.

The highest amplification factor usually occurs at the votage gain stage.... thats why the tubes can signifigantly impact the sound.

From this can we say the Bada is a tube transformerless design, in the voltage gain stage of amplification, and this is unlike other hybrids that use a large transformer instead of the Bada's huge capacitor? Again, I know of no other hybrid that uses a huge capacitor like the Bada does.

Finally, you seem to say that circuitry can be disregarded, it is how a design is implemented and not what the design is.

Class A is as natural in timbre as AB? And what about the irritating switching distortion of Class AB that results in listener fatigue?

OTL is not more natural a sound in tubes than is transformer output sound?
I have seen where experts say the opposite, though dynamics are lacking in tube OTL amps.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells Confusing to me. Please clarify: The BADA has a huge capacitor (3 inch high and 5 inch diameter), given it does not use an output transformer, like the Single power Supra OTL does, and other tube OTL designs have. The huge capacitor is in lieu of a transformer of some sort, I assume, making it an OTL design in addition to the OTL of its MosFet output. Do all hybrid headphone amps feature this big a capacitor, given, as you say that they don't use any transformer in the output? The Bada is the only one I know of tha tuses this huge capcator. Why then does it need such a huge capacitor? If Bada did not use this big capacitor then they would have to use a transformer instead, right? Going back to SACD lover's comments below: Tubes excell at voltage delivery while solid state excells at current delivery... which is the whole theory behind combining these two different amplification devices. The highest amplification factor usually occurs at the votage gain stage.... thats why the tubes can signifigantly impact the sound. From this can we say the Bada is a tube transformerless design, in the voltage gain stage of amplification, and this is unlike other hybrids that use a large transformer instead of the Bada's huge capacitor? Again, I know of no other hybrid that uses a huge capacitor like the Bada does. Finally, you seem to say that circuitry can be disregarded, it is how a design is implemented and not what the design is. Class A is as natural in timbre as AB? And what about the irritating switching distortion of Class AB that results in listener fatigue? OTL is not more natural a sound in tubes than is transformer output sound? I have seen where experts say the opposite, though dynamics are lacking in tube OTL amps.

Art... your confusing yourself trying to insist and argue that the amp is OTL. The Bada is not OTL.

The huge caps in the singlepower are resevoir caps for the power supply and have nothing to do with the input stage, voltage gain stage or output stage. If the huge cap was not present you would not use a transformer... you would use some other type of cap. OTL refers ONLY to the output stage of a tube amp... not a solid state amp that inherently forgoes a transformer. Tube amps that use transformer coupling at the output are obviously transformer designs. Tube amps that have no output transformer AT THE OUTPUT STAGE are OTL. The input and voltage gain stages are not output stages.

The huge cap in the Bada probably serves the same purpose of energy storage.... as in the singlepowers.... to prevent power supply sag from occuring during demanding musical passages. Also, experts say OTL lacks dynamics?? Thats just one more stereotype that is not true.... its all in the implementation. My singlepower tube amps have more dynamic punch acroos the entire frequency spectrum than any of my previous solid state headphone amps.

 

[drarthurwells]

Thanks again for your clarification.

It would seem that all amps would benefit from a huge capacitor, like the Bada Ph12 and Singlepower Supra.

Yes?

Yet this is very rare.

Comments?