[Rdr. Seraphim]

X2. I'm skeptical of so-called "shootouts." Everyone gets into a tizzy, starts using it to justify a decision or not... 
 
Quote:

 
I'm not. Steve (OR designer) has put too many set conditions into the ring, in an attempt to make a simple audition into a grudge match with his competition. Its distracting and quite off putting.

 

 

[Audioexcels]

Quote:

 
I'm not. Steve (OR designer) has put too many set conditions into the ring, in an attempt to make a simple audition into a grudge match with his competition. Its distracting and quite off putting.

Yes.  The only way to do a real/genuine shootout is to have the two setup in say, some best room of a show, and have people walk in and sit down for 10-20 minutes, and write down what they hear under a/b switching conditions.  This way you have completely unbiased information.  If you have a shootout where things have to be setup as the designer wants them to be setup, then it's obviously a pointless and unfair situation.
 
Did you get a chance to have a listen to the AP2 yet and if so, how do you like it so far? 

 

[Rdr. Seraphim]

And I wonder about the motivation--is it for a personal decision, or? Seems if it's based on a decision on which one to get, an arrangement with the vendor's would be simpler. Indeed, that's what my wife does with Zappos and shoes 

...  
 
Quote:

Yes.  The only way to do a real/genuine shootout is to have the two setup in say, some best room of a show, and have people walk in and sit down for 10-20 minutes, and write down what they hear under a/b switching conditions.  This way you have completely unbiased information.  If you have a shootout where things have to be setup as the designer wants them to be setup, then it's obviously a pointless and unfair situation.
 
Did you get a chance to have a listen to the AP2 yet and if so, how do you like it so far? 

 

 

[pigmode]

Quote:

 
Did you get a chance to have a listen to the AP2 yet and if so, how do you like it so far? 

 
I had a huge scare last night and early this morning. Initial set up was to a 5' bluejeans BNC cable (DAC end: BNC > RCA adaptor). The sound was a nightmare with imaging all scrunched up, the mids and HF pushed forward and blaring, and the bass loose and flabby. Almost unlistenable. This with the same cable that allowed my MK3 JKSPDIF to perform so well.
 
The A2 direct connection was set up with a DAC end BNC > RCA adaptor. It sounds like most or all issues were instantly resolved. It would also seem that I am now hearing the A2, rather than the effects of the SPDIF connection, which might be guessed (?)  as a lesson in impedance mismatching between cable length and connector terminations on the component end. 
 
The A2's mids and highs are still more forward that the JK MK3, but not overwhelmingly with quality recordings. I will let it settle in for the next 150 hr.
 
 
 
 
 
 
* See disclaimer in my sig. 
 
Parametric equalizer settings Amarra
 
f 2500, dB 2.5, Q 1.8
f 6000, dB 1.0, Q 1.0
f 7500, dB 1.0, Q 1.0
f 10450, dB 5.0, Q 1.8
 
 
 
 

 

[Audioexcels]

Quote:

And I wonder about the motivation--is it for a personal decision, or? Seems if it's based on a decision on which one to get, an arrangement with the vendor's would be simpler. Indeed, that's what my wife does with Zappos and shoes 

...  
 


 

LOL about your wife)  She should stick with 6pm...it's a better price IMHO.
 
I think the motivation thing is something to be considered because in the end, even if we declared a best of USB converters, would it even matter?  Would it boost the ego of the product maker?  In the end, if it was declared as the best USB converter, but people had conflicting feelings about it as they do with ANY product that arrives on the market, it would hurt any future sales for that company and/or make them highly suspect.
 
For me, I know the Off Ramp is the very best out there in the category of USB converters.  There may be something that can equal it, with the differences coming down to subtleties and personal preference.  AP2 is just not on the same playing field.  I was hoping it would be just for the sake of money savings, but also because in many cases, I have heard cost no object or claims of best in the world systems, and they were far from being that (and something I would never even own!).  Unfortunately, just wasn't the case for the AP2, though I still have continued interest in the product because people such as Slim or the user that mentioned the hub concept, the battery pack just about to become available, etc. etc.  I will not own one again, but it does not mean I cannot enjoy reading about how others are enjoying it, and what stuff is learned along the way to help improve it.  It's nice to see people happy in the end!
 
 

 

[Audioexcels]

Quote:

 
I had a huge scare last night and early this morning. Initial set up was to a 5' bluejeans BNC cable (DAC end: BNC > RCA adaptor). The sound was a nightmare with imaging all scrunched up, the mids and HF pushed forward and blaring, and the bass loose and flabby. Almost unlistenable. This with the same cable that allowed my MK3 JKSPDIF to perform so well.
 
The A2 direct connection was set up with a DAC end BNC > RCA adaptor. It sounds like most or all issues were instantly resolved. It would also seem that I am now hearing the A2, rather than the effects of the SPDIF connection, which might be guessed (?)  as a lesson in impedance mismatching between cable length and connector terminations on the component end. 
 
The A2's mids and highs are still more forward that the JK MK3, but not overwhelmingly with quality recordings. I will let it settle in for the next 150 hr.
 
 

 
Perfectly described in my case when I used the AP2 directly connected.  I actually wondered if I shouldn't have been as lazy as I was and purchased a BNC-Female RCA to run a coax cable into it since I love his coax cable that I have.  I'm glad you got things in order quickly enough!!!  Most have said the burn in helped deal with that initial "bite" of the AP2, so it should sound good once settled in.  Depending on your setup, you could even try to go direct in on the USB side as well...
 
Did you ever try the MK3 with a direct connect vs. using a coax cable?  
 

 

[Rdr. Seraphim]

One of the benefits of the AP device is the elimination of the cable, as well as the cost of the cable (not that a good digital cable is all that expensive). The AP2 default is no cable; the AP1 is adjustable. Are you patching this to the Neko? 
 
It will be interesting to hear what you think about it after you run it in a bit, and have grown accustomed to the difference.
 
Let us know how things progress!  
 

 
Quote:

 
I had a huge scare last night and early this morning. Initial set up was to a 5' bluejeans BNC cable (DAC end: BNC > RCA adaptor). The sound was a nightmare with imaging all scrunched up, the mids and HF pushed forward and blaring, and the bass loose and flabby. Almost unlistenable. This with the same cable that allowed my MK3 JKSPDIF to perform so well.
 
The A2 direct connection was set up with a DAC end BNC > RCA adaptor. It sounds like most or all issues were instantly resolved. It would also seem that I am now hearing the A2, rather than the effects of the SPDIF connection, which might be guessed (?)  as a lesson in impedance mismatching between cable length and connector terminations on the component end. 
 
The A2's mids and highs are still more forward that the JK MK3, but not overwhelmingly with quality recordings. I will let it settle in for the next 150 hr.
 
 
 
 
 
 
* See disclaimer in my sig. 
 
Parametric equalizer settings Amarra
 
f 2500, dB 2.5, Q 1.8
f 6000, dB 1.0, Q 1.0
f 7500, dB 1.0, Q 1.0
f 10450, dB 5.0, Q 1.8
 
 
 
 

 

 

[Rdr. Seraphim]

6pm... I don't know if I want to show her another shoe site... and I don't believe she frequent's Head-Fi, so I'm safe for now (fingers crossed). 
 
The AP2 was the starting point for me and not having heard any of the Empirical devices from Steve, I'm not sure I want to start, yet. It would mean the possibility of having to go through all the sell, buy, upgrade thingy. I'm trying to simplify. I'll give Phillip's battery PS a whirl and see what difference it makes. 
 
However, my experience with the AP2 has been very positive so far, and I'm convinced that unless you use the I2S (via HDMI, and a possibility with the OR) or some kind of a S/PDIF transport (for me, the AP2), the sound quality possible with the Wyred 4 Sound DAC will not be realized. So, the AP2 is a permanent fixture/requirement for that DAC. In my buddies six figure system, the lil' AP2 is a revelation. 
 
It sounds like there may be some synergies going on in these systems. Mine, and my buddy's reference system in a custom Rives Audio designed media room, use extensive power conditioning, including the power to the CPU's (Mac's) used for data streaming. Steve N. at Empirical seems to emphasize the need for proper power for his devices with options for battery and Hynes. So, it will be interesting to see where Phillip's battery supply takes his AP1/2 devices.
 
Of course, if you're just starting out, based on the $ alone, it makes a lot of sense to give the OR stuff a priority, especially if you can swing the ($) change. Who knows, maybe I'll end up there too. 
 
 
Quote:

!
 
Originally Posted by Audioexcels /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 

LOL about your wife)  She should stick with 6pm...it's a better price IMHO.
 
I think the motivation thing is something to be considered because in the end, even if we declared a best of USB converters, would it even matter?  Would it boost the ego of the product maker?  In the end, if it was declared as the best USB converter, but people had conflicting feelings about it as they do with ANY product that arrives on the market, it would hurt any future sales for that company and/or make them highly suspect.
 
For me, I know the Off Ramp is the very best out there in the category of USB converters.  There may be something that can equal it, with the differences coming down to subtleties and personal preference.  AP2 is just not on the same playing field.  I was hoping it would be just for the sake of money savings, but also because in many cases, I have heard cost no object or claims of best in the world systems, and they were far from being that (and something I would never even own!).  Unfortunately, just wasn't the case for the AP2, though I still have continued interest in the product because people such as Slim or the user that mentioned the hub concept, the battery pack just about to become available, etc. etc.  I will not own one again, but it does not mean I cannot enjoy reading about how others are enjoying it, and what stuff is learned along the way to help improve it.  It's nice to see people happy in the end!
 
 

 

 

[sphinxvc]

Pigmode, really looking forward to more thoughts from you on the AP - especially compared to the Jkeny.

 

[pigmode]

^  I am happy enough with it already, to think the PurePower PS might be a good upgrade . Time will tell, as I will *probably* not early adopt.
 
Also:
- Did not try the JKenny with direct connection.
- I am using the A2 connected to the Neko SPDIF RCA.
 
 
I'm still interested in the OR5. If one is looking at these devices how can you not be? At the same time I'm hoping and expecting CDPs with similar clocking technology already built in. We shall see.
 
Its too bad Empirical isn't following the same model as Audiophilleo, TTVJ/Millet, Neko and others who are promoting @ home auditions. There is a market consisting of audio enthusiasts who given the chance of auditioning within their own systems, will jump up and buy components they otherwise might not have gambled on. I'm one of them having unexpectedly bought my Millet Arete/Volcano and Neko D100 after such auditions. 
 

 

[Rdr. Seraphim]

As a starting point, the AP2 reveals what is possible with these types of transports. And who knows what the PurePower PS will provide.
 
Considering that the AP devices provide the most comprehensive and the lowest jitter of all the USB converters currently available (one of, if not the primary claimed benefit of all these types of devices), it would be an interesting study on what specific mechanisms make the most difference from a sound quality perspective. Some members mention, here and elsewhere, that the OR is audibly superior. If the AP bests it from a jitter perspective, what are the other parameters that make up the difference? Is it RF? Power? USB implementation? 
Quote:

^  I am happy enough with it already, to think the PurePower PS might be a good upgrade . Time will tell, as I will *probably* not early adopt.
 
Also:
- Did not try the JKenny with direct connection.
- I am using the A2 connected to the Neko SPDIF RCA.
 
 
I'm still interested in the OR5. If one is looking at these devices how can you not be? At the same time I'm hoping and expecting CDPs with similar clocking technology already built in. We shall see.
 
Its too bad Empirical isn't following the same model as Audiophilleo, TTVJ/Millet, Neko and others who are promoting @ home auditions. There is a market consisting of audio enthusiasts who given the chance of auditioning within their own systems, will jump up and buy components they otherwise might not have gambled on. I'm one of them having unexpectedly bought my Millet Arete/Volcano and Neko D100 after such auditions. 
 

 

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

I had a huge scare last night and early this morning. Initial set up was to a 5' bluejeans BNC cable (DAC end: BNC > RCA adaptor). The sound was a nightmare with imaging all scrunched up, the mids and HF pushed forward and blaring, and the bass loose and flabby. Almost unlistenable. This with the same cable that allowed my MK3 JKSPDIF to perform so well.
 
The A2 direct connection was set up with a DAC end BNC > RCA adaptor. It sounds like most or all issues were instantly resolved. It would also seem that I am now hearing the A2, rather than the effects of the SPDIF connection, which might be guessed (?)  as a lesson in impedance mismatching between cable length and connector terminations on the component end. 
 
The A2's mids and highs are still more forward that the JK MK3, but not overwhelmingly with quality recordings. I will let it settle in for the next 150 hr.
 

Quote:

One of the benefits of the AP device is the elimination of the cable, as well as the cost of the cable (not that a good digital cable is all that expensive). The AP2 default is no cable; the AP1 is adjustable. Are you patching this to the Neko? 
 
It will be interesting to hear what you think about it after you run it in a bit, and have grown accustomed to the difference.
 
Let us know how things progress!  
 

 
In my personal set-up, one of the interesting things I found about the AP2 is that it is far less sensitive to the quality of the digital cable than did my previous transports. When using BNC to BNC cables (i.e proper 75 ohms terminations), I find that the differences are not dramatic between different cables and the stock BNC to BNC adapter/connector.
 
With that being said, I find that my 1.3m Oyaide DB510 and my 1m Hifi Cable & Cie Sobek BNC to BNC cables have a more open soundstage (and slightly less upfront sound) than the stock BNC to BNC adapter. I also have an 18ft. Belden BNC to BNC cable which offer a very smooth sound in comparison to the rest of the cables, with a slight loss in overall resolution. For those who think that the AP2 is too bright in their systems, they might want to try a very long Belden cable (which are relatively far more affordable in comparison  with the rest of the cables). There is a theory behind using long cables but I won't go into it.
 
 
Overall, I think that there are perhaps possible gains in "upgrading" the BNC to BNC adapter to a "better" one. I was expecting the adapter (i.e. no cable) to beat the cables I have but it doesn't seem to be systematically the case. Or perhaps that I have got it wrong and that the problem lies in some weird interaction between the transport and DAC. In any case, if somebody has a link to a "good" BNC to BNC adapter, I am willing to experiment.
 
Quote:

 
The AP2 was the starting point for me and not having heard any of the Empirical devices from Steve, I'm not sure I want to start, yet. It would mean the possibility of having to go through all the sell, buy, upgrade thingy. I'm trying to simplify. I'll give Phillip's battery PS a whirl and see what difference it makes.   
However, my experience with the AP2 has been very positive so far, and I'm convinced that unless you use the I2S (via HDMI, and a possibility with the OR) or some kind of a S/PDIF transport (for me, the AP2), the sound quality possible with the Wyred 4 Sound DAC will not be realized. So, the AP2 is a permanent fixture/requirement for that DAC. In my buddies six figure system, the lil' AP2 is a revelation. 
 
It sounds like there may be some synergies going on in these systems. Mine, and my buddy's reference system in a custom Rives Audio designed media room, use extensive power conditioning, including the power to the CPU's (Mac's) used for data streaming. Steve N. at Empirical seems to emphasize the need for proper power for his devices with options for battery and Hynes. So, it will be interesting to see where Phillip's battery supply takes his AP1/2 devices.
 
Of course, if you're just starting out, based on the $ alone, it makes a lot of sense to give the OR stuff a priority, especially if you can swing the ($) change. Who knows, maybe I'll end up there too. 
 
 

I too haven't heard the Empirical Off Ramp transport and I am not in a hurry to do so, as it will probably end up being better than I currently have.
 
However, while it might make sense to spend $1000+ for USB transports in some systems, I am wondering if it sometimes better to look for a DAC that is properly built for USB from the ground up. I do have a lot for the achievement made by Steve at Empirical Audio when it comes to USB transports (I have read mostly praise about his OR products) but with all the turbo-clocks and battery power, the price (of the transport + associated DAC) is getting close to those of exceptional USB/Firewire DACs (such as the Phasure NOS1 USB DAC and the Weiss 202).
 
Finally, it seems that all of these devices need a lot of care to "set-up". Steve N. apparently insists on battery power while the AP1/2 have been reported to sound different depending on what kind of USB power they are being fed. So the consistency of the results is far from being easily predictable. Even on the same system, I have noticed that the AP2 can sound very different with Fidelizer on or off. In my Windows 7 based notebook, Fidelizer improves the sound (of all media players) considerably and brings it very close to the results obtained with some Linux Editions I tried. It seems that we have yet to reach a state where USB converters are totally immune to the quality of the computer.
Hopefully future USB transports (and maybe things like the OR5) will be immune to such differences in the computer side.

 

[sphinxvc]

Quote:

I am wondering if it sometimes better to look for a DAC that is properly built for USB from the ground up. I do have a lot for the achievement made by Steve at Empirical Audio when it comes to USB transports (I have read mostly praise about his OR products) but with all the turbo-clocks and battery power, the price (of the transport + associated DAC) is getting close to those of exceptional USB/Firewire DACs (such as the Phasure NOS1 USB DAC and the Weiss 202).

Very true, once I get the AP2 the total cost of my "source" investment will be just $700 short of a Weiss 202 retail.  

  
 
Then again, who knows how good Firewire sounds?

 

[Audioexcels]

Quote:

6pm... I don't know if I want to show her another shoe site... and I don't believe she frequent's Head-Fi, so I'm safe for now (fingers crossed). 
 
The AP2 was the starting point for me and not having heard any of the Empirical devices from Steve, I'm not sure I want to start, yet. It would mean the possibility of having to go through all the sell, buy, upgrade thingy. I'm trying to simplify. I'll give Phillip's battery PS a whirl and see what difference it makes. 
 
However, my experience with the AP2 has been very positive so far, and I'm convinced that unless you use the I2S (via HDMI, and a possibility with the OR) or some kind of a S/PDIF transport (for me, the AP2), the sound quality possible with the Wyred 4 Sound DAC will not be realized. So, the AP2 is a permanent fixture/requirement for that DAC. In my buddies six figure system, the lil' AP2 is a revelation. 
 
It sounds like there may be some synergies going on in these systems. Mine, and my buddy's reference system in a custom Rives Audio designed media room, use extensive power conditioning, including the power to the CPU's (Mac's) used for data streaming. Steve N. at Empirical seems to emphasize the need for proper power for his devices with options for battery and Hynes. So, it will be interesting to see where Phillip's battery supply takes his AP1/2 devices.
 
Of course, if you're just starting out, based on the $ alone, it makes a lot of sense to give the OR stuff a priority, especially if you can swing the ($) change. Who knows, maybe I'll end up there too. 
 
 


 

LOL again about what you said with your wife roaming head-fi))...You never know where the kitties go now do ya?)  I'm sure you are definitely safe here as women can enjoy audio, some even be audiophiles, but majority see it as another "great, it's football season again, lovely"!....
 
Sounds like you should get that OR5 over to your friend's place and accidentally slip it in when he's not looking to see what he thinks...LOL)!!!  Maybe he would not even notice the difference if you can be so sneaky or he would ask you what you've been up to this time)  
 
I think sticking to the AP2 route is a way to go with what you said.  If you were just starting out, you could reverse time and hopefully get them both in on a trial type basis to know for sure which you wished to proceed with now and future going.  Both are products that seem to be progressive, at least I know for sure with the Off-Ramps, they can be upgraded through time all in all.  AP2 may become AP3 or something down the road if Philip finds something that works better...and it may not fit into the AP2 box or one may not be able to upgrade to the latest thing.  But who knows.  At this point, I don't see any changes coming for at least a few years since this battery pack, especially if it does well, will keep things steady for another 2 years minimum while he may elect to continue developing.
 
Off Ramp, believe it or not, does excellently off a stock Mac.  Maybe the upgraded computer would yield more quiet results, but even Steve said the Monolith supply, superior to the Hynes by a lot (according to Steve), does improve the sound, but not by much, as in, it's more of a subtle type of thing.  I heard the Off Ramps without any extra supply but I have no idea if Steve has some crazy line conditioners in the rig, but I'm guessing he probably does.  I use line conditioners, old school types, and they are phenomenal for my components.  I thought it was a complete hoax, but one day, I was switching in a line conditioner that had been blowing fuses because I wanted to see what the cause was, and if all was good, planned to sell it.  Well, I turned everything on, and seconds later it blew the fuse.  My mind was in "not thinking" mode, but in spite only a few seconds and only doing this to see if I could sell it with the knowledge that it was working correctly and the buyer would not be upset obviously, I heard this night/day difference in the sound as if it was moving right through instead of going through some clogged line.  I asked my wife if she heard it but she wasn't paying attention.  Sure enough, when I plugged in only the audio components that did not shut the unit down, the sound was indeed literally night/day as if a clogged line just pushed out the dirt and was free/transparent/incredible to say the least.  I still do not understand how this can be possible, how it literally was a night/day difference, but I'll take it, and especially like that it was not defective in the end)
 
Keep trucking away with the AP2!  Hopefully the future has great things for it.  Cheers!!!
 

 

[Audioexcels]

Quote:

Quote:


 
In my personal set-up, one of the interesting things I found about the AP2 is that it is far less sensitive to the quality of the digital cable than did my previous transports. When using BNC to BNC cables (i.e proper 75 ohms terminations), I find that the differences are not dramatic between different cables and the stock BNC to BNC adapter/connector.
 
With that being said, I find that my 1.3m Oyaide DB510 and my 1m Hifi Cable & Cie Sobek BNC to BNC cables have a more open soundstage (and slightly less upfront sound) than the stock BNC to BNC adapter. I also have an 18ft. Belden BNC to BNC cable which offer a very smooth sound in comparison to the rest of the cables, with a slight loss in overall resolution. For those who think that the AP2 is too bright in their systems, they might want to try a very long Belden cable (which are relatively far more affordable in comparison  with the rest of the cables). There is a theory behind using long cables but I won't go into it.
 
 
Overall, I think that there are perhaps possible gains in "upgrading" the BNC to BNC adapter to a "better" one. I was expecting the adapter (i.e. no cable) to beat the cables I have but it doesn't seem to be systematically the case. Or perhaps that I have got it wrong and that the problem lies in some weird interaction between the transport and DAC. In any case, if somebody has a link to a "good" BNC to BNC adapter, I am willing to experiment.
 

I too haven't heard the Empirical Off Ramp transport and I am not in a hurry to do so, as it will probably end up being better than I currently have.
 
However, while it might make sense to spend $1000+ for USB transports in some systems, I am wondering if it sometimes better to look for a DAC that is properly built for USB from the ground up. I do have a lot for the achievement made by Steve at Empirical Audio when it comes to USB transports (I have read mostly praise about his OR products) but with all the turbo-clocks and battery power, the price (of the transport + associated DAC) is getting close to those of exceptional USB/Firewire DACs (such as the Phasure NOS1 USB DAC and the Weiss 202).
 
Finally, it seems that all of these devices need a lot of care to "set-up". Steve N. apparently insists on battery power while the AP1/2 have been reported to sound different depending on what kind of USB power they are being fed. So the consistency of the results is far from being easily predictable. Even on the same system, I have noticed that the AP2 can sound very different with Fidelizer on or off. In my Windows 7 based notebook, Fidelizer improves the sound (of all media players) considerably and brings it very close to the results obtained with some Linux Editions I tried. It seems that we have yet to reach a state where USB converters are totally immune to the quality of the computer.
Hopefully future USB transports (and maybe things like the OR5) will be immune to such differences in the computer side.

Excellent stuff as usual about the cables and the AP2.  I'm best guessing that my cable along with an attenuator may have done the trick.  I felt the same way about the BNC direct connector itself...it's only metal but is it quality enough or would even having some attenuator on it be a better choice???  It sounds like you figured out at least some alternatives to create a sound you like while Pigmode found the direct do the trick for him.  Seems like we are all getting varying results doing one thing or another which is a good thing since it brings more information to the table for us to trial/error/experiment with.
 
I mentioned it above, but will re-state that Steve has said the Monolith does not make much of a difference with the OR5, where in previous Off Ramps, it did.  And he says the difference is not much of anything.  Me thinks because the Monolith will be made in small quantities and take a lot of time, he's marketing/lobbying for the OR5 OR that he really does not hear much of a point in having the Monolith with the OR5 as he does with prior Off Ramps.
 
I like that you have discovered the Fidelizer.  I continue to see people post different new audio engines and the sound quality improvements, so it's good to know we have come so far, but we are still quite a bit a distance away, as well as having that distance include not just software, but that USB section/side of the equation with relation to converters and dacs....I also mentioned above that it seems that the way to go, if one likes the sound, is the better USB Dacs that have the superior converters in them so you don't have to deal with multiple boxes and keep it much more simple.